About external DACs

Maurizio

Maurizio

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Joined
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Given all the talk lately, I would be curious to try one of the r2r or multibit DACs. The ones I have are all delta sigma.
I am undecided between:
Fiio K11 r2r = €189
Schiit Modi 2 Multibit = $299 Schiit USA; €399 Schiit EU
Schiit Bifrost = $799 Schiit USA; €1029 Schiit EU
I don't understand the big price difference between Schiit USA and EU
The prices, as you can see, are very different and before buying I would like to know if anyone owns one of these DACs and what they think about the sound quality and the sound stage. Expecially Width depth. For example, regarding the Schiit DACs I read that they have crackling when listening to tracks with different bit rates. Is it true? However, this should not concern me too much because I listen to albums and not play-lists.
Every opinion is welcome. Thanks in advance
 
Maurizio said:
Every opinion is welcome
Click to expand...
Are you sure about that? :ROFLMAO:

There's a whole thread on the fiio; some prefer nos mode, but I don't.
For me it was cheap enough just to buy it / try it, and I'm sure I could sell it at a respectable loss if I wanted to.
In fact.. what's your offer ;) (joking, I might charge a lot for shipping!)

No specific opinion from me on depth / width, but I do think it suits some tracks / genres better than others.
I posted a while ago about how good some Dire Straits I was listening to through it sounded, but I don't think it's generally as good as my other main dac (in the hegel) for harder hitting rock / dance music. Still good, just not as good.

Just buy one of them (2nd hand?) and be done with it! You know you want to...
 
Mr Ee said:
Are you sure about that? :ROFLMAO:

There's a whole thread on the fiio; some prefer nos mode, but I don't.
For me it was cheap enough just to buy it / try it, and I'm sure I could sell it at a respectable loss if I wanted to.
In fact.. what's your offer ;) (joking, I might charge a lot for shipping!)

No specific opinion from me on depth / width, but I do think it suits some tracks / genres better than others.
I posted a while ago about how good some Dire Straits I was listening to through it sounded, but I don't think it's generally as good as my other main dac (in the hegel) for harder hitting rock / dance music. Still good, just not as good.

Just buy one of them (2nd hand?) and be done with it! You know you want to...
Click to expand...
Hi @Mr Ee
Thanks for your opinion. I think i will buy the less expensive. Fiio. Just to try this new architecture. If I'm satisfied I can always improve later. I have also read the opinion of users who have it and they seem to be very satisfied.
You say it supports certain genres/tracks better than others.
I mainly listen to jazz and classical. What do you think? Especially jazz, can it be a genre that it supports at his best?
 
Maurizio said:
I don't understand the big price difference between Schiit USA and EU
Click to expand...
US pricing never includes sales tax/VAT. That alone already explains most of the difference.

Variations in exchange rates are not reflected in the short run, but just over longer periods of time. Shipping costs, tariffs and general considerations regarding the target market will come on top.
 
There's a very easy way to tell if you need an external DAC.

Borrow one. Get a mate/SWMBO to help you.

Ensure the WiiM's DAC and external DAC outputs are level matched.

Conduct an A/B test, in one sitting choose between the two at least 10 times. Controlled. Blind. Preferably double blind.

If you get chance, conduct the test several times, maybe with several pieces of music. It really shouldn't take more than a few minutes to conduct each one.

Details on how to conduct such a test can be found here:


If you can get it right 9/10 times in each test, then you can tell the DACs apart. Anything else is a fail.

BTW, forum guru @Brantome prefers to 'live with' a DAC for a while. Now I don't agree with that methodology, but let's go with it, because there's an easy add-on to see if this extended listening works.

After living with your DAC for a while, if you eventually feel you've found a difference, by now it should be pretty clear what that difference is. You may be able to articulate it, or you may not, but you can give it a made-up name in your own head. You now know exactly what you're listening for.

Right, now perform the A/B test. Surely by now, after 'living with' the new DAC for so long, and having clearly identified the difference, you should be able to pick it out in an A/B test every time. If you can't, then your brain was tricking you.

But at the end of the day, it's your money.
 
Steve Woodhouse said:
There's a very easy way to tell if you need an external DAC.

Borrow one. Get a mate/SWMBO to help you.

Ensure the WiiM's DAC and external DAC outputs are level matched.

Conduct an A/B test, in one sitting choose between the two at least 10 times. Controlled. Blind. Preferably double blind.

If you get chance, conduct the test several times, maybe with several pieces of music. It really shouldn't take more than a few minutes to conduct each one.

Details on how to conduct such a test can be found here:


If you can get it right 9/10 times in each test, then you can tell the DACs apart. Anything else is a fail.

BTW, forum guru @Brantome prefers to 'live with' a DAC for a while. Now I don't agree with that methodology, but let's go with it, because there's an easy add-on to see if this extended listening works.

After living with your DAC for a while, if you eventually feel you've found a difference, by now it should be pretty clear what that difference is. You may be able to articulate it, or you may not, but you can give it a made-up name in your own head. You now know exactly what you're listening for.

Right, now perform the A/B test. Surely by now, after 'living with' the new DAC for so long, and having clearly identified the difference, you should be able to pick it out in an A/B test every time. If you can't, then your brain was tricking you.

But at the end of the day, it's your money.
Click to expand...

Thanks again for the reminder of my gullibility because I don’t subscribe to your methodology…
 
Maurizio said:
...
Schiit Modi 2 Multibit = $299 Schiit USA; €399 Schiit EU
Schiit Bifrost = $799 Schiit USA; €1029 Schiit EU
...
Click to expand...

Those! The Modi Multibit 2 is quite good for the price.

In the US, Sales Tax is 10% (mine is 6%) and some States have no Sales Tax. So comparing apples to apples, add 10% to the US price in the US to compare to EU prices.
 
Steve Woodhouse said:
No gullibility involved or implied.

Of course, I’m more than interested in why the method suggested is in anyway flawed.
Click to expand...
Succeeding in a blind test means you can reliably hear a difference. It doesn't necessarily mean you prefer one to the other when you have to live with it. Listening over a longer period gives you time to form an opinion.
Same applies when using room correction and deciding which target curve to use.
 
slartibartfast said:
Succeeding in a blind test means you can reliably hear a difference. It doesn't necessarily mean you prefer one to the other when you have to live with it. Listening over a longer period gives you time to form an opinion.
Same applies when using room correction and deciding which target curve to use.
Click to expand...

But not succeeding in a blind test speaks volumes, too.

As I say, if you prefer to listen over time, that’s great.

But that really should be enough for anyone to familiarise themselves with a particular DAC’s sound that they can spot it all the more easily in a blind A/B test.

When we talk about unconscious bias, no one is being insulted. For absolute clarity, every one of us is susceptible to it. Finding out that you thought you could tell a difference, but actually can’t, is no disgrace on anyone.

But there comes a time when the question needs to be asked. If someone lives with DAC for days or weeks until they’ve ’got used to it’, but then point blank refuse at the end if that time to try to pick it out in a blind A/B test, people are inevitably going to draw conclusions.
 
Steve Woodhouse said:
But not succeeding in a blind test speaks volumes, too.

As I say, if you prefer to listen over time, that’s great.

But that really should be enough for anyone to familiarise themselves with a particular DAC’s sound that they can spot it all the more easily in a blind A/B test.

When we talk about unconscious bias, no one is being insulted. For absolute clarity, every one of us is susceptible to it. Finding out that you thought you could tell a difference, but actually can’t, is no disgrace on anyone.

But there comes a time when the question needs to be asked. If someone lives with DAC for days or weeks until they’ve ’got used to it’, but then point blank refuse at the end if that time to try to pick it out in a blind A/B test, people are inevitably going to draw conclusions.
Click to expand...
Let's always remember that placebo is a thing and sometimes the itch just needs to be scratched.

At least K11 R2R is an inexpensive pill to try.

Plus, at the very least, we know that DACs specifically such as this one are known, even objectively measured, to be different. It's not like he's asking if he'll absolutely hear the difference between ES9038Q2M and ES9039Q2M.

-Ed
 
EddNog said:
Let's always remember that placebo is a thing and sometimes the itch just needs to be scratched.

At least K11 R2R is an inexpensive pill to try.

Plus, at the very least, we know that DACs specifically such as this one are known, even objectively measured, to be different. It's not like he's asking if he'll absolutely hear the difference between ES9038Q2M and ES9039Q2M.

-Ed
Click to expand...

Completely agree.
 
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