Amp Ultra or 3e A7 with Ultra

[Shotgun Rico]

I've had the OG Amp since April of 2024 and I would like to upgrade to something with a little more power. I plan on moving the OG Amp to handle rear duties for a surround setup. My JBL 4410a's can handle around 140 watts per channel. I could go with the Amp Ultra with its 100 watts and all in one sleek design or I could go with the 3e A7 with it's 140 watts and 48v 10a adaptor then pair that with a WiiM Ultra. I understand the Amp Ultra is the cheaper option and don't mind spending the extra money if the A7/Ultra combo could be any better. If anyone has experience with either of these amps I would appreciate any feedback. Both amps scored high on ASR's website so they are both good choices. Thanks

 

[vinylselect]

I have the WiiM Ultra & 3e A5, works very well for me. Control volume and auto on/off features of the amp from the Ultra.

 

[Mr Ee]

Are you able to describe what is missing when using the Amp, or what you hope to gain with the change?
(I'm not being argumentative!)

For me, compared to the amp pro, the amp ultra made a huge difference in one system while smaller, but easily noticable, in all others.
A clearer, cleaner, more precise, more engaging listening experience.
From that point of view, I'd expect you'd get similar from the ultra and 3e. I say that 'cos I can't tell the amp ultra apart from an ultra and a vibelink, which is surely somewhat similar to an ultra and 3e...

Do you want loud music?
I find that sometimes, with some music, the amp ultra's low-ish gain means that even at full tilt it's not crazily loud.
But I have to qualify that with it being more than adequate 95% of the time, with the speakers and room size playing their part.
It seems that the 3e has a gain selection switch, with low being quite respectful at 25-26db for rca input.
That in itself will affect volume more than the few extra watts it has over the amp ultra.

After that the choice probably comes down to box count, inputs, outputs etc. which it seems is not really a concern for you.

Good luck choosing, and I'm sure you'll have fun either way.

 

[dominikz]

I've had the OG Amp since April of 2024 and I would like to upgrade to something with a little more power. I plan on moving the OG Amp to handle rear duties for a surround setup. My JBL 4410a's can handle around 140 watts per channel. I could go with the Amp Ultra with its 100 watts and all in one sleek design or I could go with the 3e A7 with it's 140 watts and 48v 10a adaptor then pair that with a WiiM Ultra. I understand the Amp Ultra is the cheaper option and don't mind spending the extra money if the A7/Ultra combo could be any better. If anyone has experience with either of these amps I would appreciate any feedback. Both amps scored high on ASR's website so they are both good choices. Thanks

With a pair of 91dB sensitivity speakers like yours, these are the peak SPLs you should be able to reach with different powered amps:

• up to 109dB peak SPL at 1m with a 60W @ 8Ohm amp
• up to 111dB peak SPL at 1m with a 100W @ 8Ohm amp
• up to 112dB peak SPL at 1m with a 140W @ 8Ohm amp

(Link to Benchmark Amplifier + Speaker Output Calculator)

So the maximum SPLs you could get with any of these amps aren't that different (approx. 3dB difference going from the 60W WiiM Amp to the 140W 3e A7).

However, note that different amps could have different gains, which might make some of them noticeably louder than others when using a similar volume setting. You can always adjust the volume to match the perceived loudness, but you can't go over the maximum rated power of a specific amp.

A simple rule of thumb: you need 2x the power to get extra 3dB SPL (perceived as a little louder), and you need 10x the power to get extra 10dB SPL (which is perceived double as loud).

 

[harkpabst]

I've had the OG Amp since April of 2024 and I would like to upgrade to something with a little more power. I plan on moving the OG Amp to handle rear duties for a surround setup. My JBL 4410a's can handle around 140 watts per channel. I could go with the Amp Ultra with its 100 watts and all in one sleek design or I could go with the 3e A7 with it's 140 watts and 48v 10a adaptor then pair that with a WiiM Ultra. I understand the Amp Ultra is the cheaper option and don't mind spending the extra money if the A7/Ultra combo could be any better. If anyone has experience with either of these amps I would appreciate any feedback. Both amps scored high on ASR's website so they are both good choices. Thanks

The WiiM Amp Ultra is an extremely capable all-in-one box.

The WiiM Ultra paired with the 3E AUDIO A7 is en extremely capable combination with lots of flexibility and options. Plus some 3 dB of extra headroom.

 

[Shotgun Rico]

Are you able to describe what is missing when using the Amp, or what you hope to gain with the change?
(I'm not being argumentative!)

For me, compared to the amp pro, the amp ultra made a huge difference in one system while smaller, but easily noticable, in all others.
A clearer, cleaner, more precise, more engaging listening experience.
From that point of view, I'd expect you'd get similar from the ultra and 3e. I say that 'cos I can't tell the amp ultra apart from an ultra and a vibelink, which is surely somewhat similar to an ultra and 3e...

Do you want loud music?
I find that sometimes, with some music, the amp ultra's low-ish gain means that even at full tilt it's not crazily loud.
But I have to qualify that with it being more than adequate 95% of the time, with the speakers and room size playing their part.
It seems that the 3e has a gain selection switch, with low being quite respectful at 25-26db for rca input.
That in itself will affect volume more than the few extra watts it has over the amp ultra.

After that the choice probably comes down to box count, inputs, outputs etc. which it seems is not really a concern for you.

Good luck choosing, and I'm sure you'll have fun either way.

I don't necessarily need it louder as I get pretty agood levels all ready. I am, as you put, looking for something more clearer, clean, precise and engaging as far as sound goes. Probably not the best comparison but I have in my 2.1 computer set up the Neumann KH 80 and KH 750 sub. This gives me that more precise and engaging sound I am looking for. Even YouTube music sounds great.

 

[Shotgun Rico]

With a pair of 91dB sensitivity speakers like yours, these are the peak SPLs you should be able to reach with different powered amps:

• up to 109dB peak SPL at 1m with a 60W @ 8Ohm amp
• up to 111dB peak SPL at 1m with a 100W @ 8Ohm amp
• up to 112dB peak SPL at 1m with a 140W @ 8Ohm amp

(Link to Benchmark Amplifier + Speaker Output Calculator)

So the maximum SPLs you could get with any of these amps aren't that different (approx. 3dB difference going from the 60W WiiM Amp to the 140W 3e A7).

However, note that different amps could have different gains, which might make some of them noticeably louder than others when using a similar volume setting. You can always adjust the volume to match the perceived loudness, but you can't go over the maximum rated power of a specific amp.

A simple rule of thumb: you need 2x the power to get extra 3dB SPL (perceived as a little louder), and you need 10x the power to get extra 10dB SPL (which is perceived double as loud).

Thanks I appreciate the stats you provide. I'm not too concerned with max volume but it is cool to see that the peak SPL's are not too far off.

 

[Shotgun Rico]

The WiiM Amp Ultra is an extremely capable all-in-one box.

The WiiM Ultra paired with the 3E AUDIO A7 is en extremely capable combination with lots of flexibility and options. Plus some 3 dB of extra headroom.

Decisions decisions! They make a difficult to choose sometimes lol Going the "separates" route could lead to more flexibility and options. I agree.

 

[dominikz]

I don't necessarily need it louder as I get pretty agood levels all ready. I am, as you put, looking for something more clearer, clean, precise and engaging as far as sound goes. Probably not the best comparison but I have in my 2.1 computer set up the Neumann KH 80 and KH 750 sub. This gives me that more precise and engaging sound I am looking for. Even YouTube music sounds great.

If you want to change the sound then replacing the speakers would have a much more dramatic effect compared to replacing just the amp.

 

[harkpabst]

In contrast to the OG WiiM Amp, the WiiM Amp Ultra and the 3E AUDIO A7 both implement Post-filter Feedback (PFFB), very good in case of the WiiM Amp Ultra, plain excellent with the A7. This ensures that both amps can deal with any loudspeaker's complex impedance response.

The original WiiM Amp can cause variations in the speaker's frequency response because it's output impedance is not lowered by PFFB.

I love my WiiM Amp Ultra and I love my WiiM Ultra plus A5 (the smaller brother of the A7). I think it's fair to say that you should make your pick based on features and desired flexibility.

 

[dominikz]

In contrast to the OG WiiM Amp, the WiiM Amp Ultra and the 3E AUDIO A7 both implement Post-filter Feedback (PFFB), very good in case of the WiiM Amp Ultra, plain excellent with the A7. This ensures that both amps can deal with any loudspeaker's complex impedance response.

The original WiiM Amp can cause variations in the speaker's frequency response because it's output impedance is not lowered by PFFB.

This is absolutely true, though it is perhaps worth pointing out that the magnitude of the frequency response variation caused by lack of PFFB with the OG WiiM Amp would probably be less than 1dB (exact shape and magnitude depends on loudspeaker complex impedance), and it would affect frequencies above 1kHz (where the Amp's output impedance shoots up).

While this amount of FR variation can be audible, it would be more subtle than e.g. the difference we hear when changing seats/listening distance, or the difference between different loudspeaker models.

I think it's fair to say that you should make your pick based on features and desired flexibility.

I absolutely agree, all of these should be great devices!

 

[Shotgun Rico]

Does the A7 have an auto on feature? It says there does but I don’t see a trigger input.

 

[harkpabst]

Does the A7 have an auto on feature? It says there does but I don’t see a trigger input.

There is no trigger input. It has auto-sensing of the input signal and auto-off after 20 minutes with no signal.
Auto-off can be disabled, if you prefer that.
The default state after applying the mains power is on.

 

[Shotgun Rico]

There is no trigger input. It has auto-sensing of the input signal and auto-off after 20 minutes with no signal.
Auto-off can be disabled, if you prefer that.
The default state after applying the mains power is on.

Ok cool. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[EddNog]

There is no trigger input. It has auto-sensing of the input signal and auto-off after 20 minutes with no signal.
Auto-off can be disabled, if you prefer that.
The default state after applying the mains power is on.

@Shotgun Rico And any device that defaults to power on state at restoration of power can be turned into a trigger-activated device with the help of one of these awesome power strips with trigger-activated power ports:

M8-AV-PRO Power Conditioner | Power Management | Panamax

M8-AV-PRO Power Conditioner protects your AV system and helps eliminate voltage irregularities. Protect your home and office equipment. Get it now!

panamax.com

-Ed

 

[Shotgun Rico]

@Shotgun Rico And any device that defaults to power on state at restoration of power can be turned into a trigger-activated device with the help of one of these awesome power strips with trigger-activated power ports:

M8-AV-PRO Power Conditioner | Power Management | Panamax

M8-AV-PRO Power Conditioner protects your AV system and helps eliminate voltage irregularities. Protect your home and office equipment. Get it now!

panamax.com

-Ed

Thanks Ed but I have plenty of conditioners and don’t want another one. Especially at close to $200

 

[Shotgun Rico]

Slightly off topic but I was fortunate enough to acquire a free pair of the Braun/ADS LV 1020 some months back. And at the suggestion of @dominikz I would to test them out. Unfortunately (or not) they have a 7 pin din connection. @harkpabst is there a way to connect RCA to a 7 pin din? I would love it if I could use the Ultra with them?

 

[harkpabst]

Unfortunately, I don't have a manual at hand, but according to different sources the input sensitivity is variable. The exact values differ between those sources, but the input impedance is given as 50 kΩ unanimously. Electrically there shouldn't be any issues (may e except for the trigger, see below).

Ok, I did find a user manual in the meantime, but not a service manual.

7 pin DIN sounds like a weird decisions at first, but apparently there was only one cable between the pre-amp and one speaker and then an interconnect cable between the speakers. And obviously, a trigger line was included as well!

This was quite a clever argument, because each speaker had a left and right input jack. One would be connected to the preamp, the other one to the remaining speaker. Still have to understand if the interconnect cable is different from the cable to the pre-amp.

 

[Shotgun Rico]

Unfortunately, I don't have a manual at hand, but according to different sources the input sensitivity is variable. The exact values differ between those sources, but the input impedance is given as 50 kΩ unanimously. Electrically there shouldn't be any issues (may e except for the trigger, see below).

Ok, I did find a user manual in the meantime, but not a service manual.

7 pin DIN sounds like a weird decisions at first, but apparently there was only one cable between the pre-amp and one speaker and then an interconnect cable between the speakers. And obviously, a trigger line was included as well!

This was quite a clever argument, because each speaker had a left and right input jack. One would be connected to the preamp, the other one to the remaining speaker. Still have to understand if the interconnect cable is different from the cable to the pre-amp.

my brain hurts hahaha! I found they do make rca to 7 din cables. But they make so many different types of din cables. Can I use this speaker with an Ultra? I have a manual (in German I think) if you want it.

 

[harkpabst]

my brain hurts hahaha! I found they do make rca to 7 din cables. But they make so many different types of din cables. Can I use this speaker with an Ultra? I have a manual (in German I think) if you want it.

I have found the service manual and did finally find the actual pinout. Still have to think about this some more, but pins 6 and 7 just carry the control voltage of 30 V. This is obviously incompatible with modern trigger outputs, but that's not much of an issue. The speakers can be switched on manually.

Pin 2 is always (?) the ground pin with DIN plugs. Pins 3 and 5 carry the hot right and left signal. Did you get any cables with these speakers? If you already have at least one DIN cable to connect both speakers you just need a new one for connecting the Ultra to one speakers. I don't think that any adapters are readily available fro this very special use case.