Are floorstanding speakers or bookshelf speakers with a subwoofer suitable for a 14 m² room for the Wiim Amp Ultra?

[Djdragon]

I'm currently using a Denon AVR-X2400H with Teufel Ultima 40Mk3 speakers.

I listen exclusively to music, FLAC files via Tidal.

However, due to issues with Tidal, I've already ordered a Wiim Amp Ultra to replace the Denon. I also want to get better speakers for the Wiim Amp Ultra (because of the booming bass from the Teufel speakers). My budget for a new speaker system is a maximum of €1500.

I have a few questions:

1. Are floorstanding speakers or bookshelf speakers with a subwoofer suitable for a 14 m² room? (My room measures 4 x 3.5 meters, and the listening distance to the speakers is about 3 meters.)

2. If I switch from the Denon AVR to the Wiim Amp Ultra, the sound will be better (at least that's what I've read). Can someone explain exactly why? The Wiim is so small, while the Denon is large and heavy!

3. Can I use floorstanding speakers in a 14 m² room, or do I absolutely need floorstanding speakers with a subwoofer?

4. Which floorstanding speakers do you recommend?

Examples: Magnat Signature 905
Klipsch RP-6000F

Are there any other options?

5. Due to the limited space and the distance from the wall (I've heard that floorstanding speakers always need about half a meter of space from the wall, otherwise the bass booms), should I buy bookshelf speakers and add a subwoofer? (Will I achieve cleaner bass with this configuration than with floorstanding speakers?)

Examples: B&W 606 S3
Q Acoustics 5020
Dali Kupid (inexpensive, but supposedly works well with the Wiim Amp Ultra, recommended by md-sound.de)
Elac Debut 3 B6.3

Are there any other options?

6. I'm having problems with the bass on my Teufel Ultima 40 speakers (a booming bass, presumably due to insufficient distance from the wall). Can I keep the Ultima 40s? Since they support bi-amping, could I use just the tweeters and midrange drivers and buy a separate active subwoofer and connect it to a Wiim amplifier? Or would the Teufel speakers still only reproduce weak highs and mids? Should I just buy better speakers altogether?

Thank you in advance. I look forward to hearing about your experiences and recommendations.

 

[dominikz]

I'm having problems with the bass on my Teufel Ultima 40 speakers (a booming bass, presumably due to insufficient distance from the wall). Can I keep the Ultima 40s?

My proposal would be to wait until you get the WiiM Amp Ultra, and then just run RoomFit with your existing speakers.

RoomFit is really good at dealing with boomy bass so that might solve your issue altogether. Close-to-wall placement causes bass bloom, but it also reduces SBIR cancellations - so it's not necessarily bad, especially when you have access to room EQ like RoomFit or Audyssey MultEQ. Have a look at this post for some explanations.

If you still decide to get new speakers, my vote would go for one of these bookshelfs (depending on your preference for aestetics and dispersion):

• AsciLab F6B (~900€/pair), or
• Wharfedale Linton Heritage (~900€/pair), or
• KEF Q Concerto Meta (~1000€/pair)

Have a look at EAC (link) for more recommendations at various price-ranges, including detailed reviews and explanations.

EDIT: BTW I'd only consider floorstanding speakers if you need high playback levels. This is what they are designed for.

My go-to budget sub recommendation is the SVS SB-1000 Classic (discontinued officially, but can still be bought for ~550€ in EU).

2. If I switch from the Denon AVR to the Wiim Amp Ultra, the sound will be better (at least that's what I've read). Can someone explain exactly why? The Wiim is so small, while the Denon is large and heavy!

I'm pretty sure both can sound comparably good, as long as they are set up optimally.
Arguably WiiM RoomFit is easier to use and more configurable than Audyssey MultEQ, so that could give WiiM Amp Ultra the edge.

Good luck!

 

[Mr Ee]

My proposal would be to wait until you get the WiiM Amp Ultra, and then just run RoomFit with your existing speakers.

Definitely.

I have a room of similar dimensions where the floorstanders are tucked into the corners.
Roomfit tamed them nicely.
Perhaps too nicely, as I reduced a couple of the changes to return a little of the bass I'd become accustomed to.

 

[Djdragon]

Audyssey with Denon or Roomfit with Wiim Amp Ultra – do you mean the configuration via Wiim Amp Ultra? I'm not familiar with Roomfit.

And do you think I should keep the Teufel Ultima 40s? I'm worried that a better speaker won't necessarily mean better sound. Teufel speakers are generally large and highly praised. I've also reduced the bass, and it sounds better now. I'm just not sure.
Do you think the Wiim Amp Ultra delivers better sound than my Denon AVR?

 

[Mr Ee]

Do you think the Wiim Amp Ultra delivers better sound than my Denon AVR?

Probably a question only you can answer.

Once you get the wiim you can run Roomfit from within the wiim app.
If you like your current speakers then it's certainly worth trying to make them work better for you before splashing out on new ones.
Any new ones would have the same corner placementi issues.

The Wiim is so small, while the Denon is large and heavy!

Yes, been there, done that.
It does seem counter-intuative at first that something so small can sound so good.

 

[Deleted member 29741]

Asked my wife. A small 1 ct. diamond is much more sexy than a big 10 ct. rock crystal.

 

[Djdragon]

One question: Is it absolutely necessary for all floorstanding speakers (with rear-facing bass reflex ports) to be placed approximately 30–50 cm from the room corners? Is it only disadvantageous to place them in the corners in certain situations, or should they always be moved forward, even from straight walls?

And is this not as important for bookshelf speakers, since they produce less bass pressure?

 

[dominikz]

And do you think I should keep the Teufel Ultima 40s? I'm worried that a better speaker won't necessarily mean better sound. Teufel speakers are generally large and highly praised. I've also reduced the bass, and it sounds better now. I'm just not sure.
Do you think the Wiim Amp Ultra delivers better sound than my Denon AVR?

To be clear: replacing speakers, or changing their position in the room, or applying EQ would each have a much more dramatic influence on sound quality than replacing your AVR with a different amp.

Again, my advice would be to first apply room correction EQ to your current speakers and see if you're happy with the result. This should solve your boomy bass issue. I wouldn't advise to buy new speakers until you try to get the best possible sound ouf of your current speakers.

As @Mr Ee said, any speakers that you put in the same position will likely get the same bass reinforcement - this is due to physics of sound propagation and interference; it is not related to a specific loudspeaker model.

Actually, boomy bass is much less of a problem than bass deficiency/suck-out, and EQ (like RoomFit or Audyssey) solves boomy bass very effectively.

Audyssey with Denon or Roomfit with Wiim Amp Ultra – do you mean the configuration via Wiim Amp Ultra? I'm not familiar with Roomfit.

RoomFit and Audyssey are both types of room correction EQ; Audyssey is bundled with Denon/Marantz AVRs, while RoomFit comes with WiiM devices.

The main difference is that Audyssey doesn't offer a lot of configuration options out-of-the-box (i.e. as far as I know you need to buy an extra app to configure it), while RoomFit is quite configurable. With RoomFit you can even calculate your correction filters with a 3rd party app of cyour choice (like REW or Housecurve) and enter them manually.

Another issue with Denon Audyssey MultEQ XT is that it has relatively low number of FIR taps for the speakers, so low-frequency correction resolution is relatively poor.
WiiM RoomFit on the other hand uses IIR filters and allows very high resolution correction at low-frequencies.

As such, there's much more you can do to optimize the correction filters when using RoomFit compared to Audyssey.

That being said, in some cases it might still be possible to get similar sounding results with both Audyssey and RoomFit. If that is true in your case, then I wouldn't expect too much difference in resulting sound quality. In other cases the audible difference could be more dramatic. There's no way to predict which one applies to your specific scenario - but luckily you can try out both and see which you prefer.

 

[dominikz]

One question: Is it absolutely necessary for all floorstanding speakers (with rear-facing bass reflex ports) to be placed approximately 30–50 cm from the room corners?

It is not necessary at all. Having speakers back side 30-50cm from any wall makes their front side about 60-80cm from the wall. This would put the SBIR notch/dip between 100-150Hz, which would be perceived as a bass defficiency.

Here's placement recommendations from Neumann for full-range loudspeakers (green is best, blue is acceptable, red is bad):

(link to source, search for "Loudspeaker-Boundary Location" file)
Note that the distances are referenced to the front side of the loudspeaker to the wall behind the loudspeaker.
By the way, Genelec provides equivalent recommendations (see this article, section "Placement of the Monitors and the Subwoofer").

The takeaway is that full-range speakers need to be either as close as possible to walls (ideally in-wall, i.e. soffit-mounted), or really far away from any walls (>2m) to avoid bass deficiencies.

This is actually one important reason why adding subwoofers is a good idea - you get more flexibility in loudspeaker placement, compare the above table with this one which applies to loudspeaker with an 80Hz crossover to a subwoofer:

 

[slartibartfast]

It is not necessary at all. Having speakers back side 30-50cm from any wall makes their front side about 60-80cm from the wall. This would put the SBIR notch/dip between 100-150Hz, which would be perceived as a bass defficiency.

Here's placement recommendations from Neumann for full-range loudspeakers (green is best, blue is acceptable, red is bad):

(link to source, search for "Loudspeaker-Boundary Location" file)
Note that the distances are referenced to the front side of the loudspeaker to the wall behind the loudspeaker.
By the way, Genelec provides equivalent recommendations (see this article, section "Placement of the Monitors and the Subwoofer").

The takeaway is that full-range speakers need to be either as close as possible to walls (ideally in-wall, i.e. soffit-mounted), or really far away from any walls (>2m) to avoid bass deficiencies.

This is actually one important reason why adding subwoofers is a good idea - you get more flexibility in loudspeaker placement, compare the above table with this one which applies to loudspeaker with an 80Hz crossover to a subwoofer:

Am I reading this right? The best position for a bass managed speaker is more than 1.2m from the back wall since 0.2m is impossible for most speakers.

 

[dominikz]

Am I reading this right? The best position for a bass managed speaker is more than 1.2m from the back wall since 0.2m is impossible for most speakers.

You are reading it exactly right!

Though note that this table is built assuming the crossover is at 80Hz.
If you cross at a higher frequency you can put the speaker a bit closer to the wall, and similarly if you cross lower then the speaker needs to be even further from the wall.
I.e. we're looking for a distance where the first SBIR notch ends up below the crossover frequency.

On a side note - this is why cardioid bass loudspeakers like D&D or Kii are so appealing. You can put them at a reasonable distance to a wall and still entirely avoid the first SBIR notch.

 

[slartibartfast]

You are reading it exactly right!

Though note that this table is built assuming the crossover is at 80Hz.
If you cross at a higher frequency you can put the speaker a bit closer to the wall, and similarly if you cross lower then the speaker needs to be even further from the wall.
I.e. we're looking for a distance where the first SBIR notch ends up below the crossover frequency.

On a side note - this is why cardioid bass loudspeakers like D&D or Kii are so appealing. You can put them at a reasonable distance to a wall and still entirely avoid the first SBIR notch.

I won't be allowed to put my speakers 1.2m from the back wall. How many speakers can be placed 0.2m from the back wall? That would be a very low cabinet depth even without cabling.

 

[dominikz]

I won't be allowed to put my speakers 1.2m from the back wall.

I think it's the same for most people. This is why I usually recommend close-to-wall placement. It is the second-best option, albeit a compromise.

How many speakers can be placed 0.2m from the back wall? That would be a very low cabinet depth even without cabling.

There are some on-wall speakers that come close, then you have in-wall/soffit mounted speakers, and cardioud-bass speakers.
But it is not realistic for most standard box speakers, indeed.

However, from the same table you can see that up to about 0.6m from the wall is still acceptable - this fits most typical loudspeakers.

 

[Deleted member 29741]

Warning: A very subjective personal opinion will follow.
There was a time I was fed up with all these numbers. Running in circles with a measuring tape, Dirac, Muse, Roon, miniDSP, a combination of this, and so on. Never got satisfied for longer with the result. No WiiM and RF then. All snow from yesterday now because I fell in love with omnidirectional speakers from a German company, manufactured in Lower Saxony/D, three years ago. (Customs is a bit annoying here but we've learned to live with it. Just be prepared for one or another silly question at the border and it is not as expensive than many think.)
Duevel Galaxy for the streaming setup in a small "studio". Great with Ultra and Vibelink! For the main setup in the living room Duevel Bella Luna. Sure not everyone's taste, but ours. Lightyears away from pure doctrine. Music everywhere. Love it or hate it.

 

[dominikz]

Warning: A very subjective personal opinion will follow.
There was a time I was fed up with all these numbers. Running in circles with a measuring tape, Dirac, Muse, Roon, miniDSP, a combination of this, and so on. Never got satisfied for longer with the result. No WiiM and RF then. All snow from yesterday now because I fell in love with omnidirectional speakers from a German company, manufactured in Lower Saxony/D, three years ago. (Customs is a bit annoying here but we've learned to live with it. Just be prepared for one or another silly question at the border and it is not as expensive than many think.)
Duevel Galaxy for the streaming setup in a small "studio". Great with Ultra and Vibelink! For the main setup in the living room Duevel Bella Luna. Sure not everyone's taste, but ours. Lightyears away from pure doctrine. Music everywhere. Love it or hate it.

While omnidirectional speakers will for sure significantly change the sound presentation and can create a pleasing sense of envelopment, I believe it is important to point out that they'll be affected by SBIR just like traditional loudspeaker designs.
So if one is looking to optimize bass quality, the same placement advice stands as for regular box-type, front-firing loudspeakers.

 

[Deleted member 29741]

While omnidirectional speakers will for sure significantly change the sound presentation and can create a pleasing sense of envelopment, I believe it is important to point out that they'll be affected by SBIR just like traditional loudspeaker designs.
So if one is looking to optimize bass quality, the same placement advice stands as for regular box-type, front-firing loudspeakers.

Is it disrespectful to say: I heard about, but I do not care?
added: My speakers are in the same place where the traditional speakers would stay. First job of the room is to live in it.

 

[dominikz]

Is it disrespectful to say: I heard about, but I do not care?

No, it is absolutely fine - there's no need to modify anything once one's happy, I fully agree with that.

Just thought it was worth pointing out for the benefit of other people reading the thread - it might not be obvious to everyone that omnidirectional speakers are affected by SBIR.

 

[Deleted member 29741]

No, it is absolutely fine - there's no need to modify anything once one's happy, I fully agree with that.

Just thought it was worth pointing out for the benefit of other people reading the thread - it might not be obvious to everyone that omnidirectional speakers are affected by SBIR.

I added a line to my post. The most effective step to improve was to accept things.

 

[dominikz]

First job of the room is to live in it.

The most effective step to improve was to accept things.

Wise words!

 

[Djdragon]

First, I'm very grateful for your recommendations.

Since many speakers have already been tested with the Wiim Amp Ultra from md-sound.de, I am convinced that my new Wiim Amp Ultra can produce excellent sound in my 15 m² room using only a bookshelf speaker and an active subwoofer.

), I'm considering choosing one from these candidates.

Dali Kupid – Ideal for small rooms (8–18 m²), can be placed close to the wall, https://www.whathifi.com/speakers/hi-fi-speakers/dali-kupid
Elac Debut B6.3 – For loud listening, tonally balanced, 14–24 m²https://www.whathifi.../elac-debut-3-0-db53
Q Acoustics 5020 – Extremely well-balanced, beautiful design, 8–24 m² https://www.ecoustics.com/reviews/q-acoustics-5020



Very interesting, but these boxes were not recommended. , !!!

https://www.richersounds.com/fyne-audio-f500s-walnut/
Wahfedale Evo 5.1
Canton GLE 30
Focal Aria Evo X N1

This means I have to choose between three bookshelf speakers: Dali Kupid, Elac Debut B6.3, and Q Acoustics 5020! Which one would you recommend for me?

And another important question: what size subwoofer would be suitable for these speakers?(15m2) Which one would be a perfect match? I definitely need your recommendations here too!