DAC Filters switching no difference in Pro Plus

[borispavlo]

Hi,
My Wiim Pro Plus is connected to the Marantz PM6007 via analog RCAs. I noticed that there was absolutely no difference in the sound when changing the DAC filters from the corresponding menu in the app. Is it the same for you?

 

[Mr Ee]

Hi,
My Wiim Pro Plus is connected to the Marantz PM6007 via analog RCAs. I noticed that there was absolutely no difference in the sound when changing the DAC filters from the corresponding menu in the app. Is it the same for you?

I think it's the same for many people!
Presumably there are differences. Presumably they are quite subtle. Presumably certain things/sounds can make them more noticable.
So, if there's no difference for you, pick one, sit back, and enjoy.

 

[borispavlo]

I think it's the same for many people!
Presumably there are differences. Presumably they are quite subtle. Presumably certain things/sounds can make them more noticable.
So, if there's no difference for you, pick one, sit back, and enjoy.

Yes, you are absolutely right. Usually the default filter (the first one in this case) is the most versatile. But I was wondering if this toggle even works. Because when I switch DAC filters in the amplifier itself the difference is very big. And using Wiim there is none. Either way, the sound from the AKM4493 DAC is great.

 

[rccarguy]

Maybe you need a system that is more revealing?

 

[borispavlo]

Maybe you need a system that is more revealing?

No. The amplifier is connected to very sensitive vintage Jean Marie Reynaud speakers. The sistem is not a problem and other DAC's could be switched fine. I will reboot the device first.
It will be very helpful if someone shares that the DAC filter switching is working for him and the sound difference can be heard.

 

[Claudius]

Have a look here https://nihtila.com/2019/10/18/dac-...2-deeper-dive-into-ak4490-and-ak4493-filters/ and here https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/dac-filters.29338/

 

[dtc]

The Marantz uses a AKM AK4490 DAC chip and the Pro Plus uses a AKM 4493SEQ. The one in the Plus is a newer version but they should be relatively similar in sound, including the filters. The Marantz has 2 digital filters (slow and sharp) and the Plus has the same 2 filters plus some more. I presume you are using the same filters for comparing using the older DAC in the Marantz and the newer DAC in the Plus. Have you compared high rez tracks, like 24/192, to 16/44?

 

[rccarguy]

The Marantz uses a AKM AK4490 DAC chip and the Pro Plus uses a AKM 4493SEQ. The one in the Plus is a newer version but they should be relatively similar in sound. The Marantz has 2 digital filters (slow and sharp) and the Plus has the same 2 filters plus some more. I presume you are using the same filters for comparing using the older DAC in the Marantz and the newer DAC in the Plus. Have you compared high rez tracks, like 24/192, to 16/44?

More to it than that. One could have lousy analogue stages and op amps, power supply filtering, noisy PSU, poor shielding etc.

 

[dtc]

More to it than that. One could have lousy analogue stages and op amps, power supply filtering, noisy PSU, poor shielding etc.

Of course.

My comparison of the 2 DACs was just to point out that the ones in each piece of equipment come from AKM so they should have a similar sound. Different companies' DACs can sound different but a company typically maintains a house sound.

If there is no difference in the sound of the filters from the Plus, then he is right to wonder if it is working correctly. Hence the question - has anyone heard a difference with the filters?

 

[borispavlo]

The Marantz uses a AKM AK4490 DAC chip and the Pro Plus uses a AKM 4493SEQ. The one in the Plus is a newer version but they should be relatively similar in sound. The Marantz has 2 digital filters (slow and sharp) and the Plus has the same 2 filters plus some more. I presume you are using the same filters for comparing using the older DAC in the Marantz and the newer DAC in the Plus. Have you compared high rez tracks, like 24/192, to 16/44?

Thank you for this clarification.

With it we touch on a very specific topic about the Marantz PM6007 amplifier. Really everywhere it is widely advertised with its good sound and the new (then) DAC АКМ4490. But all this continues until the fire at the AKM factory in October 2020. This creates a serious production problem and Marantz quietly began to replace the AKM4490 DAC with the ESS Sabre 9010 DAC. Both in the amplifiers and CD-devices of the same series and everywhere they use it. My Marantz is from the end of 2022 and it is precisely with the ESS Sabre 9010 DAC (confirmed by Marantz support). But in general the owners of the 6007 seria don't know, because Marantz doesn't notify about this change anywhere, and even on their websites the old information is still written. Therefore, when WiiM announced that they would use the new AKM 4493 for Pro Plus, I was very happy, because I am able to hear the sound of the AKM DAC.
And I'm not disappointed at all.

P.S. I wrote to the Wiim support too. So, if it's a bug, it will be solved in the future updates of Wiim Home App.

 

[dtc]

Thank you for this clarification.

With it we touch on a very specific topic about the Marantz PM6007 amplifier. Really everywhere it is widely advertised with its good sound and the new (then) DAC АКМ4490. But all this continues until the fire at the AKM factory in October 2020. This creates a serious production problem and Marantz quietly began to replace the AKM4490 DAC with the ESS Sabre 9010 DAC. Both in the amplifiers and CD-devices of the same series and everywhere they use it. My Marantz is from the end of 2022 and it is precisely with the ESS Sabre 9010 DAC (confirmed by Marantz support). But in general the owners of the 6007 seria don't know, because Marantz doesn't notify about this change anywhere, and even on their websites the old information is still written. Therefore, when WiiM announced that they would use the new AKM 4493 for Pro Plus, I was very happy, because I am able to hear the sound of the AKM DAC.
And I'm not disappointed at all.

P.S. I wrote to the Wiim support too. So, if it's a bug, it will be solved in the future updates of Wiim Home App.

Interesting. The change to the Sabre DAC does complicate the situation. I was just going from Marantz's specs. Support should give you more information.

 

[borispavlo]

Interesting. The change to the Sabre DAC does complicate the situation. I was just going from Marantz's specs. Support should give you more information.

Yes, Marantz don't like to discuss the theme, but the support confirmed the ESS Sabre DAC using the serial number of amplifier. A nice video who is interesting in this quiet change is here:

But anyway, I think the app could not really do switching between these filters and still wait for somebody to confirm or deny it

 

[CrystalGipsy]

No. The amplifier is connected to very sensitive vintage Jean Marie Reynaud speakers. The sistem is not a problem and other DAC's could be switched fine. I will reboot the device first.
It will be very helpful if someone shares that the DAC filter switching is working for him and the sound difference can be heard.

Marantz filters are their own design and do exhibit differences one is a slow roll off linear phase the other fast roll off hybrid but as there is a moment of silence between switching the doesn’t help in comparing seamless which DACs normally do. Ones in DACs tend to be the default for that chipset and are often very subtle. I don’t notice the ones in my RME really at all nor the Wiim Pro, but they are grouped in a way that the variation is minimal.

 

[Smartplug]

Your system may not be revealing or your ear is not good.

 

[borispavlo]

Your system may not be revealing or your ear is not good.

Мaybe you are right. I am too analog for using smartplugs.

 

[steadyshot]

• Sharp Roll-off Filter: This filter has a steep roll-off, which means it attenuates frequencies just outside the desired range. This reduces aliasing, which is a distortion caused by sampling at a lower rate than the original signal. However, this filter may introduce ringing artifacts, which are unwanted oscillations before and after the signal. This filter is ideal for those seeking precise signal reproduction, especially in complex tracks1.
• Slow Roll-off Filter: This filter has a gradual roll-off slope, which means it attenuates frequencies more gently. This reduces ringing and phase distortion, which is a shift in the timing of the signal components. However, this filter is slightly less effective against aliasing. This filter is ideal for listeners who prefer a smoother, more natural audio quality1.
• Short Delay Sharp Roll-Off Filter: This filter combines the sharp roll-off with reduced signal delay, which means it limits pre-ringing, which is the ringing that occurs before the signal. This filter maintains clear frequency attenuation, which means it preserves the desired signal components. This filter is ideal for those sensitive to timing and phase but desiring clear audio reproduction1.
• Short Delay Slow Roll-off Filter: This filter combines the slow roll-off with minimized delay, which means it reduces both pre-ringing and phase distortion. This filter offers a natural sound with less artifacts. This filter is ideal for listeners valuing natural sound and phase coherence1.
• Super Slow Roll-off Filter: This filter has an even gentler roll-off slope, which means it attenuates frequencies very smoothly. This filter minimizes phase shift and ringing, ensuring a smooth sound. This filter is ideal for audiophiles who favor a very smooth, natural listening experience1.
• Low Dispersion Short Delay Filter: This filter balances time dispersion and roll-off sharpness, which means it reduces both pre- and post-ringing for a balanced sound. This filter also reduces phase distortion and aliasing. This filter is ideal for those seeking a balanced sound with minimal artifacts1.

 

[steadyshot]

In practice the only filters that sound clean is the sharp roll off and the short delay sharp roll off which improves voices ( they sound more saturated ) there is less “echo” but it may sound more muddy . The others sound smooth and rolled off but grainy .

I think for Wiim the best filter is the default one that is the sharp roll off .

 

[borispavlo]

In practice the only filters that sound clean is the sharp roll off and the short delay sharp roll off which improves voices ( they sound more saturated ) there is less “echo” but it may sound more muddy . The others sound smooth and rolled off but grainy .

I think for Wiim the best filter is the default one that is the sharp roll off .

Yes, you are absolutely right. Most analysts recommend just that.

 

[Charles Dray]

Hello since the thread is about PM6007 and WiiM pro, I’d like to ask your expert advice on what WiiM to get to get the best setup with my PM6007. Initial idea was to use toslink out to the dac of my PM6007 (I also have CD6007 so was thinking about sound consistency), will the Pro give better result, even slightly, than the mini in that configuration? How about WiiM Pro+, would it make sense to use its own dac and analog out to PM6007 or just a waste of money?
Thank you very much in advance.

 

[Mr Ee]

Hello since the thread is about PM6007 and WiiM pro, I’d like to ask your expert advice on what WiiM to get to get the best setup with my PM6007. Initial idea was to use toslink out to the dac of my PM6007 (I also have CD6007 so was thinking about sound consistency), will the Pro give better result, even slightly, than the mini in that configuration? How about WiiM Pro+, would it make sense to use its own dac and analog out to PM6007 or just a waste of money?
Thank you very much in advance.

My entirely amateur advice is that the difference in optical output between a mini and a pro would be so small as to be irrelevant.
I have a 6006 which I used to feed with a mini, now a pro (well, now it goes via an smsl su9). Mainly swapped 'cos I put the mini in a different setup, and wanted ethernet.

As for the pro÷ dac vs the pm6007 dac, well, I can't answer that directly as I don't have a +
However, If you are happy with the 6007 dac (and I don't see why you wouldn't be, if it's anything like my 6006, which is likely!) then I'd suggest sticking with that, and possibly adding an external dac between the wiim and the marantz at a later date if you want to experiment.