It's time to evolve into new Flagship

[rubato]

Hahaha, is that an AI creation? Judging by the labels on the case it must be...As always it's playing Martin Garrix

Neter neter

 

[Flatron7]

We're talking about a new flagship, not a luxury line. No one's calling for a multi-thousand-dollar product, but rather for improved hardware at a reasonable price. Again, your logic is strange: if Wiim has top software, then it doesn't need good hardware?

Finally, someone who understands my thoughts. I just said that given the excellent software, perhaps now we can get better hardware that does it even more justice. I'm not talking about high-end or thousands of dollars, but just a superior product without erasing any products from the current lineup.

 

[hgo58]

Finally, someone who understands my thoughts. I just said that given the excellent software, perhaps now we can get better hardware that does it even more justice. I'm not talking about high-end or thousands of dollars, but just a superior product without erasing any products from the current lineup.

What hardware updates would actually make a real difference in sound quality? I am curious.

We could have more in/out options but that is possible in other ways.

Only thing I see is more CPU power and memory to support more protocols.

 

[Flatron7]

So your really happy with the WiiM & the software but you want to upgrade.

This is how snake oil was invented ,stick with WiiM unless you want to p#££ money up the wall!

Yes, I'm satisfied, but I'd also like to see a product that aims higher, and I don't see what's strange about what I'm saying. For the price/quality ratio, what it does is fantastic. But in absolute terms, there are streamers and DACs that sound better, and as I've pointed out several times, their software is pitiful compared to that of the Wiim. Wiim, on the other hand, excels in software, support, and above all, development. I'll give you a silly example: Wiim is the only one that can let you use the USB connected to an external DAC simultaneously along with the subwoofer output, with real-time volume control for the USB digital output and subwoofer output. No other manufacturer in the world can do this. Maybe, and I just say maybe, MINIDSP could, but I'm not sure. These excellent features and peculiarities make me think that Wiim could also come up with a better product in terms of hardware than the Ultra, better galvanic isolation, better power supply (separate between channels and separate between analog and digital), dual DACs, fully balanced, stereo subwoofer outputs, USB input. In short, a new product that can range from €500 to €2,000 (it's a random range, don't take it as a target). I'm a longtime hi-fi and music enthusiast, I've tried brands like Eversolo, Bluesound, NAD, Volumio, Gustard, Denafrips, Topping, Luxman, Aurender, Auralic, Burmester, Primaluna, etc., etc. I've been using room corrections with Dirac and Room Perfect for years, I correct rooms with REW and analog media, I could go on but that's beside the point. Thinking that Ultra is the ultimate in audio quality is arrogant of you, as is your statement "this is how snake oil was born." I've tried and heard the things. Can you say the same, or have you only tried the Ultra? I was just saying that more powerful hardware with better audio quality COULD do justice to an excellent piece of software, in my very humble opinion. I'm not saying Wiim should abandon its entry-level products, nor that it MUST make this new product. Wiim will do what it wants and what makes it the most money. But given the potential, it could, if it wanted, expand its product range even further. If you don't like this opinion of mine, that's fine, I'll get over it.

 

[castalla]

I'll give you a silly example: Wiim is the only one that can let you use the USB connected to an external DAC simultaneously along with the subwoofer output, with real-time volume control for the USB digital output and subwoofer output. No other manufacturer in the world can do this.

And the number of real-life users who actually care about this is likely to be counted in the low tens

 

[JAB]

MINIDSP could, but I'm not sure.

It can, but I stopped using it because the delay range of only up to 9ms could be not enough for a bigger room. I decided use buy bigger speakers instead. My enthusiasm for room correction of any coleur is gone anyway. Often it makes things more complicated than better. YMMV.

And for the other parts of your post you will (and have in between already) face headwind from the populists

 

[Flatron7]

What hardware updates would actually make a difference in sound quality? I don't find any.

We could have more in/out options but that is possible in other ways.

Only thing I see is more CPU power and memory to support more protocols.

But is this a forum for HiFi enthusiasts or not? Okay, let's get into the details: What does a streamer/DAC/Preamp need to maximize audio quality? In audio, the battle is against: electrical noise from the power supply (ripple, switching noise), thermal noise from components, RF/EMI noise (Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, CPU, display), ground noise (disturbances on the ground), common-mode noise (especially on USB ports), phase jitter (the most critical), transport jitter (USB, SPDIF), internal clock jitter, interference (EMI/RFI) that can be produced by the streamer's processor(s), Wi-Fi modules, displays, switching power supplies, non-isolated USB cables, routers, phones, TVs, and other electrical and electronic devices in the home; distortion (THD, IMD, I/V, filters). The distortion of the analog stage of the DAC is more important than the chip itself. Crosstalk, ground loops, quantization and dithering, insufficient power supply, often due to cheap switching power supplies.

Now that we've clarified what we're fighting, we need to understand HOW to fight it: a kernel optimized for audio with low latency, reduced processing, and accurate clock management. Accurate and separate power supplies for the digital and analog sections; a noisy, high-ripple power supply degrades the entire signal. Galvanic isolation between the streamer and DAC reduces RF/EMI interference (essential in fast DSPs) with shielding and optimal positioning of the elements on orthogonal axes, multiple ground planes, safe distances between digital and analog, low-ESR capacitors very close to the critical chips, very short clock paths, and filtered power supplies for each section.
To reduce jitter, we must use isolated clocks such as femto and ultra-low-noise OCXOs. Many devices claim "femto clock" but place it close to the noisy sections, a poor engineering choice.
No DAC chip is "magical," but the best ones have: high real ENOB, THD+N below –115 dB or better, perfect linearity at very low levels, dual-mono architecture or one per channel. Often, the I/V conversion and analog low-pass filters (LPF) are more important than the chip itself. The op-amp or discrete output stage can roughly produce 60-70% of the DAC's sound.
A quality preamp section must have very stable gain, a powerful output stage with low impedance, a generous linear power supply, a ground network, and ideal wiring.
For a best volume control that doesn't ruin SNR, the best ones generally use resistor arrays, relay ladders, or high-precision R2Rs. So, taking the Wiim Ultra as an example, if we were to consider what a better version of a near-all-in-one (only the power amplifier is missing) would be like, it should focus on: a silent streamer with precise clocking, a DAC (dual or dual-mono) with excellent I/O and analog filters, an analog preamp like the ones above of excellent quality with excellent, separate and adequate power supplies. Total isolation between digital and analog. High-quality, well-implemented inputs/outputs.
And, of course, software that does NOT degrade the signal. I hope I've been exhaustive. This is the battle and the solutions that all audio companies fight to improve the sound of their products. If the the WiiM Ultra were already at the top of all this, as some here believe, other brands wouldn't make sense and everything would sound the same. Since this isn't true, and many of the things I've written aren't present in WiiM products for obvious budget reasons, it means there's always room for improvement.

 

[Flatron7]

And the number of real-life users who actually care about this is likely to be counted in the low tens

Absolutely true, there will be very few of them, but this greatly reinforces my point. If a company has the strength to implement such a niche feature, it means it has magnificent software development, and can even afford these gems that no one else can afford. Even more so, it could take high-end hardware (not high-end, obviously, but still accessible to the general public) to the highest levels, creating a mid-level product that blows away all the competition.

 

[hgo58]

But is this a forum for HiFi enthusiasts or not? Okay, let's get into the details: What does a streamer/DAC/Preamp need to maximize audio quality? In audio, the battle is against: electrical noise from the power supply (ripple, switching noise), thermal noise from components, RF/EMI noise (Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, CPU, display), ground noise (disturbances on the ground), common-mode noise (especially on USB ports), phase jitter (the most critical), transport jitter (USB, SPDIF), internal clock jitter, interference (EMI/RFI) that can be produced by the streamer's processor(s), Wi-Fi modules, displays, switching power supplies, non-isolated USB cables, routers, phones, TVs, and other electrical and electronic devices in the home; distortion (THD, IMD, I/V, filters). The distortion of the analog stage of the DAC is more important than the chip itself. Crosstalk, ground loops, quantization and dithering, insufficient power supply, often due to cheap switching power supplies.

Now that we've clarified what we're fighting, we need to understand HOW to fight it: a kernel optimized for audio with low latency, reduced processing, and accurate clock management. Accurate and separate power supplies for the digital and analog sections; a noisy, high-ripple power supply degrades the entire signal. Galvanic isolation between the streamer and DAC reduces RF/EMI interference (essential in fast DSPs) with shielding and optimal positioning of the elements on orthogonal axes, multiple ground planes, safe distances between digital and analog, low-ESR capacitors very close to the critical chips, very short clock paths, and filtered power supplies for each section.
To reduce jitter, we must use isolated clocks such as femto and ultra-low-noise OCXOs. Many devices claim "femto clock" but place it close to the noisy sections, a poor engineering choice.
No DAC chip is "magical," but the best ones have: high real ENOB, THD+N below –115 dB or better, perfect linearity at very low levels, dual-mono architecture or one per channel. Often, the I/V conversion and analog low-pass filters (LPF) are more important than the chip itself. The op-amp or discrete output stage can roughly produce 60-70% of the DAC's sound.
A quality preamp section must have very stable gain, a powerful output stage with low impedance, a generous linear power supply, a ground network, and ideal wiring.
For a best volume control that doesn't ruin SNR, the best ones generally use resistor arrays, relay ladders, or high-precision R2Rs. So, taking the Wiim Ultra as an example, if we were to consider what a better version of a near-all-in-one (only the power amplifier is missing) would be like, it should focus on: a silent streamer with precise clocking, a DAC (dual or dual-mono) with excellent I/O and analog filters, an analog preamp like the ones above of excellent quality with excellent, separate and adequate power supplies. Total isolation between digital and analog. High-quality, well-implemented inputs/outputs.
And, of course, software that does NOT degrade the signal. I hope I've been exhaustive. This is the battle and the solutions that all audio companies fight to improve the sound of their products. If the the WiiM Ultra were already at the top of all this, as some here believe, other brands wouldn't make sense and everything would sound the same. Since this isn't true, and many of the things I've written aren't present in WiiM products for obvious budget reasons, it means there's always room for improvement.

Thanks for the explanation

I must be luckily, as I don't have any of these issues. Now I don't use the analog part of my WiiMs, as I have wireless (via dedicated WiFi) active speakers. So that may explain why I already have the SQ I need. The investment is in my speakers and room.

Let us see what WiiM may come up with.

 

[Flatron7]

It can, but I stopped using it because the delay range of only up to 9ms could be not enough for a bigger room. I decided use buy bigger speakers instead. My enthusiasm for room correction of any coleur is gone anyway. Often it makes things more complicated than better. YMMV.

And for the other parts of your post you will (and have in between already) face headwind from the populists

So I remembered MINIDSP well. Thank you for clearing up my doubts. I only had a MiniDSP Studio for a short time and I wasn't sure if it had this feature. Plus, you really made me laugh with the joke about populists. This doesn't even sound like an audio enthusiast forum. It seems to be full of owners who are fans of an object convinced it's their little treasure, unapproachable by anyone like Sméagol/Gollum. I've owned all streamers WiiM products; they're little gems for the price, but I'd never dare call their sound nirvana, unsurpassed in sound quality. I'm amazed at how many people think it's impossible to improve on the WiiM Ultra's sound.

 

[JAB]

So I remembered MINIDSP well. Thank you for clearing up my doubts. I only had a MiniDSP Studio for a short time and I wasn't sure if it had this feature. Plus, you really made me laugh with the joke about populists. This doesn't even sound like an audio enthusiast forum. It seems to be full of owners who are fans of an object convinced it's their little treasure, unapproachable by anyone like Sméagol/Gollum. I've owned all streamers WiiM products; they're little gems for the price, but I'd never dare call their sound nirvana, unsurpassed in sound quality. I'm amazed at how many people think it's impossible to improve on the WiiM Ultra's sound.

My explanation for that is very clear. But due to political correctness I keep my fingers calm

 

[Flatron7]

Thanks for the explanation

I must be luckily, as I don't have any of these issues. Now I don't use the analog part of my WiiMs, as I have wireless (via dedicated WiFi) active speakers. So that may explain why I already have the SQ I need. The investment is in my speakers and room.

Let us see what WiiM may come up with.

You're welcome. If you're happy with your sound, that's fine. I also use active speakers, but I use them wired. I get something better when they're connected via coaxial cable. I hope now it's clear what I was referring to and why I started this thread.