Roon/ WiiM Pro/Amazon Echo Link/ MRM (Multi-Room-Music) Problems Getting Started

[AudioPhool]

I just bought the WiiM Pro and Amazon Echo Link. My intent was to do Multi-Room-Music with an Alexa (MRM) Group.

I’ve named the Alexa Group: “House”.

To the “House” Group (of 2-Echo Speakers, just to begin), I've included my new Amazon Echo Link also as a Device. I set the Echo Link as “Line In Distribution” in the Alexa App labeled as “House” under the “Multi-room Music” heading.

I connected the WiiM (digital) TosLink (Out) to the Echo Link (In).

Presumably, I thought I should also add my WiiM pro to the multi-speaker Group (named "House"). I got that idea from this quote, that I culled from this helpful post: https://forum.wiimhome.com/goto/post?id=28714.

For the line in redistribution to an Alexa multi room music (MRM) group, the Link itself needs to be part of the group and the MRM group identified under “Devices> Echo & Alexa> Echo Link> select Line in distribution” in the Alexa app. Once you start playing, the Link should detect the audio then send it to the other echos.

While including the WiiM Pro in the Alexa MRM Group seems correct, I wonder??

However, after doing the above, when I said: “Alexa”: “Play Music in the House”, iHeart Radio began to play (which was my last music stream, in another Group).

Again, if the WiiM is NOT in the House Group, how or why would Alexa know to use it? And/or, how does Alexa know what input/stream to use, when a Group is selected, IF the WiiM Pro is NOT somehow specified as the source?

Also, whether this applies as an issue (or not) the following is a description assocaiated with the attached Alexa screen pictures:
In Alexa/ in the "Device" menu, when I view the WiiM Pro screen, under: “Connected Devices” / “Speaker" / "Built-in speaker" is seen. Next to Built-In speaker, when I click on “Change”, the next screen heading is: "Connect to you speaker" and the options are: <"Select a Preferred Speaker/Let Alexa Choose/Other Speakers,> the Built-in Speaker is checked. This all seems questionable. The WiiM Pro isn’t a speaker it is an Input device.
(Further & probably less important: under Bluetooth: “1 speakers paired” is seen. But I assume that 1-speaker may be my Samsung Galaxy S22 Ultra + phone.)

So, I've been working this issue since early afternoon and it is now 3:40am and I'm dazed and confused. It seems like I’m so close, but yet so far away.

Couple that with the fact that both the WiiM Pro and the Amazon Echo Link are new, untried devices and there are a lot of undetermined variables occurring here in addition to my Alexa MRM issues. However, I do have loads of Alexa experience, with 19-Echo devices, along with dozens of other device types, as well as dozens of (well-functioning) Alexa Routines. So, I'm not an Alexa neophyte, but I'm certainly new to the WiiM Pro / Echo Link / MRM....

 

[Wiimer]

Hi.

It looks like no photos have been posted.

If you set WiiM as your preferred speaker, all music in the group will be played via WiiM.

 

[Brantome]

Hi,

It might help if we split the use of a WiiM device in an Alexa environment, and then deal with where the Echo Link might fit in.

For starters, let’s assume you have linked your Alexa account with WiiM via the Alexa entry in the WiiM Home app and that your WiiM device appears in the Alexa app under Echo&Alexa devices.

The first step I would take is to give your WiiM an easy to interpret name in the Alexa app as Alexa in my experience has difficulty in understanding and pronouncing “WiiM” (like many people do, it’s “WiM“ like “win”, not ”WeeM” like Wii). For example, and for obvious reasons , I renamed my WiiM Mini as Puck and that’s the name I‘ll use in the following examples.

Since your WiiM device appears under Echo&Alexa devices in the Alexa app, you can use it exactly as if it were a real echo - you can direct music to it and include it anywhere you’d include an echo, for example in an Alexa multi room music (MRM) group or in a smart home device/room group.

So, let’s deal first with music and radio services that you’d normally expect Alexa to support e.g. Amazon Music, Tunein, iHeartRadio etc.

1. You can use a WiiM remote paired with your WiiM device and use its mic to ask “Play Bruce Springsteen’s Greatest Hits”, or play a radio station from Tunein or iHeartRadio.

2. You can use another echo device to direct music to your WiiM e.g. “Alexa, shuffle my good stuff playlist on Puck”

3. You can use the preferred speaker setting in a device/room group to direct music to your WiiM and/or other speakers by default. So, for example, if we had an echo in our “Kitchen” group and had our WiiM device Puck identified as one of the speakers under the preferred speakers setting and had chosen the option not to have to specify the group name, we could ask that echo “Alexa, play country music on iHeartRadio”, and it would play on Puck (and any other speakers also identified under that setting). We could also ask a different echo, “Alexa, play some music in the Kitchen” and it would play on Puck as it’s the Kitchen group preferred speaker.

4. We could also include Puck in a MRM group with other echos, say Upstairs, and ask any echo “Alexa, play the latest album by Neil Young upstairs” (or “…on the upstairs group”) and it would play on Puck and the rest of the echos in that MRM group.

So, from the above, you‘ll hopefully see there’s no need for any other kit if all you want to do is play music services that Alexa supports on your WiiM either on its own or as part of an Alexa MRM group.

Now to the Echo Link. You should only need to use this and its line in (re)distribution feature to other echo devices for services that Alexa wouldn’t natively support but that WiiM does e.g. playing Qobuz, or local files from your NAS, or line in from a turntable or other device.

However, I think we maybe should split this into two potential scenarios:

1. Input: when the WiiM device is being use as the line in source to provide an audio stream unsupported by Alexa, then set up your Echo Link as I described in my other post which you copied above. In this case, the audio would be send to all the echos via the Echo Link’s input from the WiiM. The WiiM is NOT included in the MRM group as it’s acting as the audio input, not as an echo speaker. In fact, this would work even if the WiiM wasn’t known to Alexa - it’s just some device, like a turntable, that‘s providing audio to be distributed by the Echo Link to one or more echos.

2. Output: in this case, the WiiM, like any other echo, is included in the MRM group that is receiving the audio from the Echo Link from some source other than the WiiM. It doesn’t make sense that the WiiM would be providing the audio while at the same time receiving it.

I hope this separation of use cases makes some sense - I think your initial post may have been intermixing them and that has perhaps led to the confusion.

Feel free ask for clarification (or correction!) of what say above

 

[Brantome]

Just noticed your screenshots - I'd unpair whatever is paired with your WiiM device as it'll only confuse matters.

When Alexa MRM was first released, it didn't support Bluetooth speakers connected to echos in the group. Some believed that this was because Alexa MRM used bluetooth to help sync the echos, but that's not the case as MRM is entirely a wifi protocol. Some time after that, bluetooth speakers connected to echos were supported in a MRM group, and Amazon even had a help page outlining that. Later on, the feature seemed to have been deprecated and that help page disappeared. However, it would still work in some cases - for example when connected to gen 3 dot (and possibly other older non screen echos), but not when connected to an echo show which dropped the bluetooth speaker during MRM playback. Alexa support (well the ones I've spoken to) will deny it ever was supported. Even today, the Alexa app paradoxically refers to such when troubleshooting MRM issues.

So, as I say, you're probably better bluetooth unpairing your WiiM from any device when you wish to use it in an Alexa MRM group.

 

[AudioPhool]

Since your WiiM device appears under Echo&Alexa devices in the Alexa app, you can use it exactly as if it were a real echo - you can direct music to it and include it anywhere you’d include an echo, for example in an Alexa multi room music (MRM) group or in a smart home device/room group.

Brantome: I'm not sure where to begin, your advice is just that good!

Firstly, I was NOT aware that the WiiM could be used as you said: "a real echo" and that it had an internal speaker. That fact alone, provides information that I would NOT have assumed. But after all of my machinations yesterday, I was beginning to think that the WiiM may be a "real echo"! Thus, your information provides the logic I was needing, to make sense and fill-in the some of my knowledge/logic gaps.

So, let’s deal first with music and radio services that you’d normally expect Alexa to support e.g. Amazon Music, Tunein, iHeartRadio etc.

Following this sentence, your instructions make perfect sense.

Now to the Echo Link. You should only need to use this and its line in (re)distribution feature to other echo devices for services that Alexa wouldn’t natively support but that WiiM does e.g. playing Qobuz, or local files from your NAS, or line in from a turntable or other device.

And herein lies my dilema!

My intent (and the purpose of obtaining a WiiM Pro), was to use the WiiM to stream to Alexa (Echo speakers) what: "Alexa wouldn't natively play". Namely -- to use my DIY HTPC or my NAS with a Roon Core/Server running -- to stream my 100K+ FLAC tracks from Roon (a music service Alexa doesn't support), to all of my Alexa Echo speakers!

Side Note: Because the WiiM Pro is now a "Roon Ready" device and end point, it does specifically support Roon...yea!​

In fact, my Roon server automatically discovered the WiiM. Roon lists two WiiM devices: 1) a WiFi one and 2) an Ethernet one. WiiM's manual entry that follows, IS absolutely clear on which one I should select, & when however:

(Per the WiiM Pro Manual): When the Ethernet cable is plugged in, and WiiM Pro can connect to your network via the Ethernet connection, it’ll disable the Wi-Fi automatically and connect to the network via Ethernet only. You can check which network connection is used from the WiiM Home App > Browse Tab > Scroll down to the bottom, and check the select audio source section. You’ll see the Ethernet instead of Wi-Fi when an Ethernet connection is used.

However, I think we maybe should split this into two potential scenarios:

1. Input: when the WiiM device is being use as the line in source to provide an audio stream unsupported by Alexa, then set up your Echo Link as I described in my other post

For the line in redistribution to an Alexa multi room music (MRM) group, the Link itself needs to be part of the group and the MRM group identified under “Devices> Echo & Alexa> Echo Link> select Line in distribution” in the Alexa app. Once you start playing, the Link should detect the audio then send it to the other echos.

In this case, the audio would be send to all the echos via the Echo Link’s input from the WiiM. The WiiM is NOT included in the MRM group as it’s acting as the audio input, not as an echo speaker. In fact, this would work even if the WiiM wasn’t known to Alexa - it’s just some device, like a turntable, that‘s providing audio to be distributed by the Echo Link to one or more echos.

2. Output: in this case, the WiiM, like any other echo, is included in the MRM group that is receiving the audio from the Echo Link from some source other than the WiiM. It doesn’t make sense that the WiiM would be providing the audio while at the same time receiving it.

I hope this separation of use cases makes some sense - I think your initial post may have been intermixing them and that has perhaps led to the confusion.

As to your last sentence, you hit the nail on its proverbial head! The WiiM's Input/Output separation was mainly where I found my confusion.

So, the WiiM Pro can be either an Input or Output device:

• Input: A sort of data transmitter/line source of what its input is (and it should NOT be included in the MRM group, but the Echo Link should be included in the group.
• Output: An Echo-type speaker (receiver of data) and should be included in the MRM group. But should the Echo Link also be included in the MRM goup, along with with the WiiM? I would think not.

The Input concept of a “transmitter”/line source is off-putting. Not because it isn't understandable. But because, in the scheme of things, I wonder just how does the Alexa/Echo Link (TosLink) connection provide Alexa with the wherewithal (for lack of a better word or analogy) to obtain its data from the WiiM (which is obtaining its input from my Roon server, in my case)?
Does the physical connection (TosLink in my case), make it just happen, like a physical line source (i.e., CD Player) connection would?
Example: If I have a CD Player connected to my pre-amp (or a receiver), turning the input selector knob to accept the appropriate female RCA's, switches the source feed to CD. Similiarly, what -- if anything -- is being check marked/turner on, or off in the Alexa App, to make this switch/connection happen?

For example, when I tell Alexa to play a music feed from a source like iHeart radio, that connection makes sense. It is no more complex than using my PC to log into iHeart radio & then to listen to the feed via my sound card. But because I don't concretely understand what's going on within the Alexa App, I can't get my head around making a similar comparison to the Roon/WiiM/Echo Link music distribution process. For example, when I tell Alexa to play a MRM Group (of speakers) -- with the Echo Link in the Group (but not the WiiM) -- how does Alexa know to access the WiiM pro's output? I'm sure the answer is obvious, but it isn't yet to me.

So, as I say, you're probably better bluetooth unpairing your WiiM from any device when you wish to use it in an Alexa MRM group.

Understood and Thanks!

Lastly, WiiM's Status?:
When the WiiM is used as Roon music player (so to speak) and connected to the Echo Link via TosLink, are the WiiM's front face buttons bypassed? I ask, because during and after setup, I may have touched or held some of the unit's buttons. So, I have no idea what setting each is currently on. Hence, my question.

 

[Brantome]

Brantome: I'm not sure where to begin, your advice is just that good!

Thanks - like you I guess, I’ve been using Alexa since I first could get one here in the UK (the tall gen 1 Echo) and have been the admin and a main contributor on a large 30k member Facebook group for several years.

Firstly, I was NOT aware that the WiiM could be used as you said: "a real echo" and that it had an internal speaker. That fact alone, provides information that I would NOT have assumed. But after all of my machinations yesterday, I was beginning to think that the WiiM may be a "real echo"! Thus, your information provides the logic I was needing, to make sense and fill-in the some of my knowledge/logic gaps.

WiiM Devices don’t have an internal speaker, think of them more like an Echo Input if you recall that model (the precursor to the Echo Flex) which I used to use connected to my amp. Like the Echo Input, WiiM devices need to send their audio to an external device. WiiM’s Alexa compatibility comes from them having been developed using Amazon’s Alexa MRM software development kit, which also gives them the still unique ability to support full bit perfect 24/192 casting from the amazon music app.

I’ll digest the rest of your response and respond tomorrow hopefully.

 

[AudioPhool]

Opps, I confused the WiiM's remote mic with the WiiM unit having an internal speaker. Thanks for the clarification. It's an important one.

My experience with Alex and Echo devices is certainly not as broad as yours.

Partially because we were building a new house in 2018 and partially because I'm disabled, I researched smart home devices, beginning with Lutron Caseta dimmer switches. Because the Caseta's have physical remotes and can be paired with a phone, they made sense and were priced right with the need to buy all new switches. Thereafter, with several additional IoT devices, Alexa became practical.

Having virtually all of the lighting controllable by Alexa is a plus. Also, among other things, it's handy to have instant radio news and information feeds. Our Caseta switches have just worked without fail and are highly recommended, at least here in the U.S.

I've found the use of a single Alexa word to activate devices to be helpful, especially the lights. So, I've established Alexa routines that replace Alexa's normal request phrasing, to usually just one word. And like you mentioned, that word can sometimes be confusing to Alexa. In fact, I just changed a "Talk DC" routine referencing a Washington DC radio station, to be "Talk Washington", because it was less confusing & easier understood by Alexa.

But finally, finding a way to play my considerably music collection on the many Alexa speakers we have is wonderful. For background music I was playing iHeart radio. But iHeart's advertising has grown more profuse and disruptive and besides their free music selection wasn't comparable to my HTPC's 20tb hard drive completely full of FLAC tracks. Therfore, hopefully, I can get the Roon/WiiM Pro/Echo Link performing as they're supposed to.

 

[Brantome]

Ok, part 2.

First, the Echo Link. From here https://www.amazonforum.com/s/question/0D54P00006zStpFSAS/how-to-select-line-in-on-echo-link-amp and other sources, you can't ask Alexa or use the Alexa app to change the input source on the Echo Link, it prioritises them based on auto detection viz.
"There is no user selection of input source. The Link will play one source at a time based on detected signals in the following priority: Bluetooth, Alexa streaming, coax, optical and RCA. For example, if you're playing from a source connected to the optical input and you request a stream through Alexa, the output will switch to Alexa when it's audio stream begins because it has a higher priority. As a general principle, if you play from one source at a time everything works OK."

So, let's split your scenarios again as I did earlier - playing Alexa supported services v. playing non-Alexa sources, in your case via Roon, the WiiM Pro and the Echo Link.

1. Playing Alexa supported services in a MRM group

If we take your example of the House group, this should contain the echo devices you wish to play on. You can also include your WiiM Pro in this group, selecting the audio output you wish from its device settings in the WiiM Home app. For example, let's say you choose optical output which then goes into an external DAC/Amp and then to your stereo speakers.

Asking any echo "Alexa, play country music from iHeartradio on the House group" should then play on all your echos and via the WiiM to the connected DAC/Amp/speakers.

There is no need for the Echo Link to be involved in this setup, but if you similarly have it connected to a stereo setup, you could include it in the House MRM group to play back the audio like the other members of that group. You might not even need to turn off line in distribution even though it's not being used due to the priority list I mention up front.

2. Playing from Roon via the WiiM Pro and Echo Link to an Alexa MRM group

This may not be that different to the above setup, apart from the fact that the WiiM Pro should NOT be in the MRM group as it's not playing but passing thru the audio from Roon to the Echo Link. So setup another MRM group, say called Roon with all the required echos AND the Echo Link. Set up line in distribution in the Alexa app, identifying the Roon MRM group under “Devices> Echo & Alexa> Echo Link> select Line in distribution”.

We then need to set the WiiM's audio output under its device settings in the WiiM Home app to the connection we have to the Echo Link, say in this case, its coax output into the Link's coax input. While you may be able to set the coax output resolution to 24/192 as that's what a (USA) Echo Link will support, it is perhaps moot as I believe from my tests that Alexa MRM only supports up to 24/48 which is all that Echos support anyway.

When you start playing from Roon to the WiiM Pro, the Echo Link should auto detect the stream and then send the audio to the other echos in the Roon group. As noted in the thread you linked to above, the Echo Link will also play the audio itself over its outputs if you have it connected to a stereo or set of speakers.


In conclusion, it should be straightforward to do what you want, using the House MRM group for Alexa supported services, and the Roon MRM group for non-Alexa, Roon delivered streams.

Good luck

 

[AudioPhool]

Wow Brantome, your posts have been clear, concise and cogent! I appreciate the logical arrangement of your replies and thank you for providing your valuable insight! Cheers, -Mike (AudioPhool)

 

[Brantome]

Thanks - do let us know if it works, and certainly if it doesn't!

 

[AudioPhool]

*** SUCCESS***

I have sound, so thanks to your advice Brantome, the proper connection between components has been made!

Beginning with what I assumed to provide the most robust methodology, I connected both the WiiM and Echo Link with hardwired connections to our LAN. So, via the Roon App, I started by selecting the WiiM Ethernet Output vs WiiM WiFi Output. In fact, I had disabled WiFi in WiiM's Device/Settings/Network Status.

But after experimentation, I've found that the Ethernet connection method is problematic (either within the settings of WiiM, the Echo Link, the Router, or all 3?).

Like the Roon core, I hardwired both the WiiM Pro and the Echo Link. With the 2 devices hardwired, output (music) either stops after a few seconds, is intermittent, stuttering, or I've heard an echo of 2 or more instances of the same track playing seemingly out of sync (but this is on the same speaker, not multiple ones). Admist the playback hiccups, sometimes it hasn't worked trying to halt playback via Roon on my PC, or phone, or via WiiM's App. The music keeps on playing, with me having to speak the (ubiquitous) "Stop" command to one of the Alexa speakers.

With this (hardwired) Ethernet mess, Roon provides this message: "Roon lost control of the audio device because the input was switched", but it keeps on playing, stuttering, etc., or not! I haven't been able to determing a consistant sequence of these events, to figure out what's happening.

Because I imagined that my drop-outs and inconsistent playing was network related. I've been playing around with settings.

But the good news is, that moving from selecting Ethernet to WiFi, has thus far worked well! This is even though I had the WiiM's WiFi setting disabled!?! I have since enabled the WiFi within the WiiM. If it works over WiFi (vs Ethernet), who am I to quibble with success!?!

But after my experience, I question the following statement in the WiiM Pro user manual:

(Per the WiiM Pro Manual): "When the Ethernet cable is plugged in, and WiiM Pro can connect to your network via the Ethernet connection, it’ll disable the Wi-Fi automatically and connect to the network via Ethernet only." "You can check which network connection is used from the WiiM Home App > Browse Tab > Scroll down to the bottom, and check the select audio source section. You’ll see the Ethernet instead of Wi-Fi when an Ethernet connection is used."

I discovered that the system worked when switching Roon's output from the flawed Ethernet process, to Roon's WiFi output. Yet, the WiiM remained hardwired into the LAN. Why the WiiM worked on WiFi while still hardwired, when the manual suggests otherwise, I haven't a clue. Could my WiiM be flawed in that respect and that's why I'm having hardwired Ethernet issues?

In any case, I now have sound traveling the path you very graciously helped me establish! At some point, I will probably continue to troubleshoot the copper cable Ethernet gremlins.

HOWEVER, I'm just pleased as heck to have my considerable Roon Library playing on Alexa & Echo speakers throughout the house!!!. Kudos to you for helping and the WiiM team for a providing a product that performs what so many of us have wanted!

 

[Brantome]

I don’t have Roon so I’m not sure where the source of your Ethernet issues might lie and what network path Roon takes depending on whether you use the WiiM wifi or Ethernet output.

Have you had a look at the network status under your WiiM’s device settings? There’s an “enable wifi” toggle there even if you are Ethernet connected so I guess the manual is a little out of date. Maybe having that turned off or on might change the behaviour you see.

Anyway, at least wifi is working well for you - enjoy the music

 

[AudioPhool]

Among the many attributes of Roon that I have enjoyed, has been its solidness. I fire up the HTPC, it loads the Roon server (core) and with no additonal futzing, Roon always finds and loads Roon end points (i.e., Roon enabled devices)!!

Yeah, because Ethernet is there and I can't use it, I want it. Such is life! We tend to want what we could have and even want it more, when we can't have it. But to be fair, I need to re-vist the WiFi/Ethernet issue on the WiiM and its App. In the midst of changing settings on the Alexa App and WiiM, I may have confused things relative to the WiiM and Ethernet. Now that things are working on WiFi, I will take my time checking that sort of option.

Currently however, as you stated:

at least wifi is working well for you

and indeed, whole house music using my library and Alexa speakers is robustly working and it is a reality!!

 

[AudioPhool]

After getting the Roon>WiiM Pro>Echo Link>Echo Speaker Group working via WiFi, I NOW have it working over Ethernet!!

As documented above, early in my attempts to make the proper WiiM Pro>Echo Link connections and the proper Alexa App choices, I couldn't get Ethernet working. Somewhere in that process WiFi worked after Brantome helped me double check the App choices I made, and multiple-speaker music resulted. I waited a couple of days to make sure everything was stable and then today, I plugged in the Ethernet cable in the WiiM and it worked -- hardwired success!! Because I did nothing BUT plug in the Ethernet cable again (after WiFi was working & stable), my Ethernet problem was probably me!!

It is Sooo nice hearing MY music (via Roon) everywhere in the house, on multiple Amazon Echo speakers. Thanks, Brantome!!!

 

[AudioPhool]

After getting the Roon>WiiM Pro>Echo Link>Echo Speaker Group working via WiFi, I NOW have it working over Ethernet!!

As documented above, early in my attempts to make the proper WiiM Pro>Echo Link connections and the proper Alexa App choices, I couldn't get Ethernet working. Somewhere in that process WiFi worked after Brantome helped me double check the App choices I made, and multiple-speaker music resulted. I waited a couple of days to make sure everything was stable and then today, I plugged in the Ethernet cable in the WiiM and it worked -- hardwired success!! Because I did nothing BUT plug in the Ethernet cable again (after WiFi was working & stable), my Ethernet problem was probably me!!

It is Sooo nice hearing MY music (via Roon) everywhere in the house, on multiple Amazon Echo speakers. Thanks, Brantome!!!

 

[CrystalGipsy]

I’ve had issues with my Pro Plus and the Ethernet not working no idea why either.

 

[AudioPhool]

I’ve had issues with my Pro Plus and the Ethernet not working no idea why either.

Hope you get the "why" figured out. With all of the machinations I did to get the system working, I simply stumbled upon the fact that WiFi was working and Ethernet wasn't. However, that was before Brantome's helpful assistance herein and more machinations.

So, I may have tweaked a setting either on the WiiM App, the Echo Link or Alexa, that caused the Ethernet to work. However, as you, I can't pinpoint the why?

I haven't been using my Roon>WiiM>Echo Link>Echo Speaker Group system since my last post. So, there has been no real long term testing. I'm in the process of switching over from a Windows PC to a Roon/Rock/NUC music Server. After that's up and running, I will post here, if I again have Ethernet issues.