SACD Rabbit Hole...

[motleypixel]

Hey gang,

Been awhile, but I still use my WiiM Ultra daily, such a wonderful kit of tech if you ask me. I use it to play CD's, LP's via MM cart, and stream from internet and UPnP via Plex from my flac music library.

Now I'm in a little over my head, my CD player currently is an SMSL PL-100 mainly a transport but I think it does have a built in DAC since it outputs PCM via stereo RCA. I output via Toslink optical to the WiiM and enjoy it.

Now I have an OPPO DV980-H DVD/multi with SACD playback capability and I'm wondering how to get the best out of it when playing SACDs to my system.

I only have a 2.1 system, that is from WiiM LFE sub out to my active subwoofer and RCA L/R out to my RCA L/R in of my amp that powers my two L/R bookshelf speakers. So onto my questions:

1. Does the WiiM Ultra support SACD DSD audio over HDMI (HDMI v1.2a or greater)?

2. If the answer to #1 is no, then perhaps I should just use speaker setup downmix to "stereo" but I'm unsure if I should keep SACD at DSD or PCM?

3. Again, just wanting to know in the case of this SACD player which I will only use to play normal CD's and SACDs how to connect it to my WiiM Ultra (RCA out of SACD player to RCA in on WU, Toslink Optical and/or Coax digital out of the SACD player to digital in on WU, or HDMI out of the SACD player to HDMI in on the WU?

Even with some quick research, I have read that an SACD read as DSD in a player, then converted to PCM is an improvement in quality over just CD PCM source? I'm all new to this at this point.

Starting on pg. 21 of my SACD player (OPPO DV980-H) shows my audio setup options for the player. https://www.oppodigital.com/support/dv980h/download/DV-980H English Manual.pdf

Thank you.

 

[d6jg]

The Oppo won’t be able to use the Ultra’s HDMI input. That’s reserved for HDMI ARC from a TV etc

 

[motleypixel]

The Oppo won’t be able to use the Ultra’s HDMI input. That’s reserved for HDMI ARC from a TV etc

That's easy then. I think to realize the full glory of SACD DSD then keep it simple, use the Oppo's internal DAC/processor to read the SACD DSD layer and output it from the rear stereo RCA outputs of the Oppo and send that to the WiiM Ultra RCA input.

Should it be better than CD PCM? I think?
Will I hear the difference? Yes, it's my stuff and my method!
Would someone else hear the difference? 50/50, yes/no

 

[Valentino]

If you want to get the SACD layer to the Ultra it’s RCA analog only.
I improved on the Ultra ADC by using a MiniDSP Adept as its analog front end. Flowchart on my user page.

 

[motleypixel]

If you want to get the SACD layer to the Ultra it’s RCA analog only.
I improved on the Ultra ADC by using a MiniDSP Adept as its analog front end. Flowchart on my user page.

Which one?

 

[dtc]

You might also try to have the Oppo output PCM through the coax output for conversion to analog by the Ultra. Not sure if it will work.
The manual only talks about using coax output for Dolby Digial and DTS, but it might also work with SACD converted to PCM.


On the Oppo

Set Digital Output to PCM

Set SACD output to PCM

Connect the coax on the Oppo to the coax input on the Ultra.


That may allow you to compare using the DSD DAC in the Oppo to letting the Oppo convert DSD to PCM and then using the Ultra DAC.

Again, not sure if it will work or not.

That Oppo was cutting edge in its day but it is somewhat dated.

 

[harkpabst]

I think to realize the full glory of SACD DSD then keep it simple, use the Oppo's internal DAC/processor to read the SACD DSD layer and output it from the rear stereo RCA outputs of the Oppo and send that to the WiiM Ultra RCA input.

When using the WiiM Ultra's RCA inputs, the signal will go through the built-in ADC and (if you use the Ultra's analogue RCA outputs) it will also go through the built-in DAC.

You can circumvent the Ultra's ADC by either using an external ADC like the miniDSP ADept or PocketADC (and then connecting one of those to a digital input of the Ultra) or by trying a digital output of the DV980-H, as suggested by @dtc.

You can circumvent the Ultra's DAC by using an external DAC.

What you cannot do is having the Ultra play DSD natively, since this is not supported. The DV980-H would have to do the conversion to either PCM or analogue in any case. DSD is "supported" (but immediately converted to PCM through USB drive input, DLNA media servers or LMS and Squeezelite enabled.

Playing DSD Audio Files on WiiM Devices

All WiiM devices, except for the WiiM Mini, support DSD audio file playback. These devices convert DSD content into PCM data for playback, with a sample rate of up to 192kHz. Here are the ways you can play DSD audio files on WiiM devices: ...

faq.wiimhome.com

 

[motleypixel]

You might also try to have the Oppo output PCM through the coax output for conversion to analog by the Ultra. Not sure if it will work.
The manual only talks about using coax output for Dolby Digial and DTS, but it might also work with SACD converted to PCM.

On the Oppo

Set Digital Output to PCM

I wonder what options are here because the manual does not talk but about RAW, I need to fetch my small monitor to be able to change these settings I suppose? What is RAW and what are the options for this one?

Set SACD output to PCM

Connect the coax on the Oppo to the coax input on the Ultra.

Humm, so I'm still trying to wrap my head around this as it's all new to me. So is audio SACD DSD layer that's read and converted to PCM then fed to a DAC > an audio CD layer that's read only as PCM then fed to DAC?

So what are some things I can look at in determining that this is all working correctly? Like bit/sample rate being displayed? 16/44?

That may allow you to compare using the DSD DAC in the Oppo to letting the Oppo convert DSD to PCM and then using the Ultra DAC.

Again, not sure if it will work or not.

That Oppo was cutting edge in its day but it is somewhat dated.

Well I did connect the L/R front/mix output of the Oppo via RCA to stereo 3.5mm to my amps aux in (analog) and it plays, so the Oppo when playing a regular audio CD can convert the PCM to analog internally and set analog to amp. I am getting my first SACD today and will be curious what I find.

Yes it's dated and in fact wasn't working when I pick it up for free as someone in our neighborhood was giving it away for free on our community fb page. I found this thread on how to repair it and it was in fact a bad belt. It's in pristine condition and the components on the pcbs internally seemed of very high quality (brands/types anyway): https://www.hoboes.com/Mimsy/Movies...dv-980h-dvd-player-tray-wont-open-wont-close/

 

[dtc]

I think RAW means what today we would call bit streaming. It passes the original audio signal unchanged to the output. Oppo uses it for Dolby and DTS movies so your receiver can decode the audio. I am not sure what it does, if anything, for SACD.

My idea is that if you can convert SACD to PCM without going through an analog stage then the digital signal can go directly to the Ultra for conversion to analog. This eliminates a D to A conversion step in the Oppo and an A to D step in the Ultra. Again, I am not sure if the Oppo does that or not.

The path you are currently using is
SACD --> Analog --> Oppo RCA output --> Ultra RCA input --> Ultra A to D converter --> Ultra DAC

The path I am suggesting to try is

SACD --> PCM --> Oppo optical output --> Ultra optical input --> Ultra DAC

where everything to the left of the blue arrow happens in the Oppo and everything to the right happens in the Ultra. So, the blue area represents a physical cable.

The Ultra converts analog signals into digital, hence the Ultra A to D converter is part of your current path.

All of this may not work or make much difference in sound, but who knows. As I said, it is an experiment.

And, yes, at its time your Oppo was state of the art. I have an Oppo bdp 95 that I only stopped using so I could do 4K movies.

 

[QuarryHunslet]

Ultra Coax input -

The Ultra doesn't have a Coax Input, it only has a Coax Output.

 

[dtc]

The Ultra doesn't have a Coax Input, it only has a Coax Output.

Sorry you are correct. I always just assume it does. It should.

So, Optical rather than Coax. Changed in my post above.

 

[Valentino]

Which one?

This is it:

 

[motleypixel]

The path you are currently using is
SACD --> Analog --> Oppo RCA output --> Ultra RCA input --> Ultra A to D converter --> Ultra DAC

Well I'm currently not using my Ultra at all, the Oppo is on my workshop bench where I have a testing pre-amp/amp and speakers. Right now when I play a normal CD in the Oppo I have the RCA L/R out going to the Aux 3.5mm in on my pre-amp (zero DAC involved here) and it plays the music.

I'm wondering now what will happen if I slap in this hybrid SACD later today. If I see SACD in the display and it plays the music, then I assume it's reading the DSD layer and doing 100% conversion to analog. If this is true, then is there ANY difference is signal quality if I play the same album as a audio CD vs the SACD?

The path I am suggesting to try is

SACD --> PCM --> Oppo optical output --> Ultra optical input --> Ultra DAC

I will try this but also need to know what to look for on both the Oppo side and the Ultra side. I would assume on the Oppo if I'm playing a hybrid SACD which this one I'm getting in later today is, then if the display reads SACD then it should be reading the DSD layer. Then on the Ultra if it does play music when switched to Optical In and RCA L/R out (which goes to my amp and onto my speakers) then is there any sort of display numbers I should pay attention to?

At the end of the day, I just need to have a means to effectively/efficiently play the SACD and know that I'm getting the benefit from that media source over regular audio CD. If I can't achieve this with the devices/equip. I currently have then I will forgo the SACD route.

Thank you,
Roy

 

[motleypixel]

I just asked Oppo support and this was their response:

Due to copy protection, the DSD layer of SACDs cannot be output via Coaxial or Optical. You will need to play the CD layer of hybrid SACDs for output via Coaxial or Optical.

 

[dtc]

As I remember it, the CD version on a hybrid SACD may or may not be the same version as the DSD track. They often remastered to get the SACD version but that does not mean they used that remastered version for the CD track. I believe in most cases it is, but not always. So it can be a bit of a crap shot as to the difference in the CD and SACD layers of a hybrid SACD. Give a listen and see if you hear any difference. I think you can set the priority of playing the tracks in the Oppo menus. The manual does not indicate that there is a CD display but maybe there is. You can tell from just playing a CD. Not sure what it shows with a hybrid CD track.

I think Oppo support is referring to the DSD audio bits and that is certainly copy protected. The question is what it does with that layer when you convert it to PCM. The same restriction may apply, but it is not clear. Maybe Oppo support can answer that question directly. Just ask them if my workaround will work. Hopefully they will know.

What other product has support years after it stops maying products. Oppo is/was a great company. They are a very large cell phone producer in Asia. Their audio products were sort of a side-line business. They filled a niche at the time. Once the main producers caught up the exited the business. My $1000 Pioneer blu-ray player took several minutes to load a disk. Shortly afterward Oppo did it in seconds, for half the price.

 

[slartibartfast]

As I remember it, the CD version on a hybrid SACD may or may not be the same version as the DSD track. They often remastered to get the SACD version but that does not mean they used that remastered version for the CD track. I believe in most cases it is, but not always. So it can be a bit of a crap shot as to the difference in the CD and SACD layers of a hybrid SACD. Give a listen and see if you hear any difference. I think you can set the priority of playing the tracks in the Oppo menus. The manual does not indicate that there is a CD display but maybe there is. You can tell from just playing a CD. Not sure what it shows with a hybrid CD track.

I think Oppo support is referring to the DSD audio bits and that is certainly copy protected. The question is what it does with that layer when you convert it to PCM. The same restriction may apply, but it is not clear. Maybe Oppo support can answer that question directly. Just ask them if my workaround will work. Hopefully they will know.

What other product has support years after it stops maying products. Oppo is/was a great company. They are a very large cell phone producer in Asia. Their audio products were sort of a side-line business. They filled a niche at the time. Once the main producers caught up the exited the business. My $1000 Pioneer blu-ray player took several minutes to load a disk. Shortly afterward Oppo did it in seconds, for half the price.

If they used the same mastering for the CD layer and the SACD layer everyone would realise there was nothing special about SACDs

 

[motleypixel]

@dtc

Thoughts?

 

[jetson]

To enjoy SACD sound on a stereo system, here's what you need to do. I have this setup with a Sony Blu-ray/SACD player and it works great.

At Long Last! Listen To Your (Physical) SACDs Through an Outboard DAC

At Long Last! Listen To Your SACDs Through an Outboard DAC George Graves When Sony/Phillips Announced their new Super Audio CD format (SACD) in 1999/2000, Sony opened a marketing office in NYC to advertise and promote the new format. They reached out to a number of audio writers (including, yours...

audiophilestyle.com

 

[dtc]

@dtc

Thoughts?

I cannot read the screen shots. Can you cut and paste the text?

 

[motleypixel]

I cannot read the screen shots. Can you cut and paste the text?

Me replying to Oppo Support:
Also, after posting your reply about digital copyright to the WiiM Forum:

"I think Oppo support is referring to the DSD audio bits and that is certainly copy protected. The question is what it does with that layer when you convert it to PCM. The same restriction may apply, but it is not clear. Maybe Oppo support can answer that question directly. Just ask them if my workaround will work. Hopefully they will know."

So, I'm just trying to justify a use-case here. If I have an SACD and insert it play, and the player reads the DSD layer and the "digital output" is set from "raw" to "pcm" then i connect the RCA L/R output from the player to an amp w/o any DAC it should play music right? Will it be of higher quality than say if I just play a normal audio CD?

Thank you

OPPO Service
7:14 PM (1 hour ago)
Hi Motley, Yes, you will have audio when using the RCA connection with SACDs. Regardless of the setting for DSD or PCM, there will be no audio when playing the DSD

Me Replying back
8:04 PM (35 minutes ago)
to OPPO

Wow, thank you again, I wanted to share some positive feedback with a forum member, please see attached.

This being said, and please pardon my ignorance and lack of knowledge/experience with SACD and this player. In simple terms, will I benefit from higher quality listening playing an SACD (even if it's hybrid, it should default to read the DSD layer) if I connect the Oppo RCA L/R stereo analog output to my audio amplifier? This is my bench test setup, in my listening room I would connect the Oppo L/R RCA output to my WiiM Ultra L/R RCA stereo input, which I believe is sent to the WiiM Ultra's DAC, then passed out the WiiM Ultra's L/R stereo RCA output to the L/R RCA stereo input of my listening room amp (no DAC here) and then onto my stereo speaker system.

I'm just trying to make 100% certain, I WILL benefit from spinning an SACD in the Oppo player compared to, say, just spinning an audio CD red book PCM. Otherwise, why would I start buying SACDs, it would be a complete waste of money.

Thank you.