subwoofer management

[catchmeifyoucan]

Hello guys,

quick question. I want to use a different pre amp to my power amplifier and use the wiim ultra as a streamer only.
Can i still use the sub out/ bass management if i do so ?
I just wanted to test some older/vintage pre amplifiers to see if i can get a warmer sound. The wiim ultra sounds quite harsh to my ears.

thanks in advance.

 

[Wiimer]

Hello guys,

quick question. I want to use a different pre amp to my power amplifier and use the wiim ultra as a streamer only.
Can i still use the sub out/ bass management if i do so ?
I just wanted to test some older/vintage pre amplifiers to see if i can get a warmer sound. The wiim ultra sounds quite harsh to my ears.

thanks in advance.

Hi

Yes sure.
The Sub out can be used simultaneously with all output ports on the Ultra. As long as a subwoofer is connected to the Ultra's Sub out, bass management features (such as RoomFit and subwoofer settings) can be used.

 

[dominikz]

Just note that if you do this you will still need to control the volume on the Ultra (and not on your external preamp), as that is the only way to ensure subwoofer and loudspeaker relative volumes remain consistent.

If I may suggest a potential alternative solution: if you want to make the Ultra sound warmer, try configuring a single high-shelf PEQ as a treble control, and decrease its gain until you find the tonality more pleasing:

• Treble Control (high-shelf):
  • Filter type=HS
  • Freq=4000Hz
  • Gain=according to your preference
  • Q=0.70

(Concept from this post)

Good luck!

 

[catchmeifyoucan]

Just note that if you do this you will still need to control the volume on the Ultra (and not on your external preamp), as that is the only way to ensure subwoofer and loudspeaker relative volumes remain consistent.

If I may suggest a potential alternative solution: if you want to make the Ultra sound warmer, try configuring a single high-shelf PEQ as a treble control, and decrease its gain until you find the tonality more pleasing:

• Treble Control (high-shelf):
  • Filter type=HS
  • Freq=4000Hz
  • Gain=according to your preference
  • Q=0.70

(Concept from this post)

Good luck!

thank you, im going to give this a try first !

 

[catchmeifyoucan]

Hi

Yes sure.
The Sub out can be used simultaneously with all output ports on the Ultra. As long as a subwoofer is connected to the Ultra's Sub out, bass management features (such as RoomFit and subwoofer settings) can be used.

i guess as long as you dont use the variable volume, it can be used. thanks for clarifying.

 

[dominikz]

thank you, im going to give this a try first !

If you try it would be interesting to read your impressions.

One note: when you are configuring the high-shelf PEQ remember to set PEQ mode to "stereo" so it applies to both channels

Filter type (HS for high-shelf) is set per-filter:


I suggested 4kHz frequency as a good starting point, but you can experiment with other values as well - depending on where you perceive the harshness.

 

[catchmeifyoucan]

If you try it would be interesting to read your impressions.

One note: when you are configuring the high-shelf PEQ remember to set PEQ mode to "stereo" so it applies to both channels
View attachment 32192
Filter type (HS for high-shelf) is set per-filter:
View attachment 32193

I suggested 4kHz frequency as a good starting point, but you can experiment with other values as well - depending on where you perceive the harshness.

okay i will report back !

 

[slartibartfast]

W

i guess as long as you dont use the variable volume, it can be used. thanks for clarifying.

Which variable volume? You have to use variable volume on the Ultra.

 

[jdavis417]

Hello guys,

quick question. I want to use a different pre amp to my power amplifier and use the wiim ultra as a streamer only.
Can i still use the sub out/ bass management if i do so ?
I just wanted to test some older/vintage pre amplifiers to see if i can get a warmer sound. The wiim ultra sounds quite harsh to my ears.

thanks in advance.

I am interested if the pre-gain settings and/or output voltage affect overall sound signature? It might be something to consider?

 

[jdavis417]

W

Which variable volume? You have to use variable volume on the Ultra.

Is he running the streamer in fixed output mode?

 

[slartibartfast]

Is he running the streamer in fixed output mode?

No idea, ask him

 

[catchmeifyoucan]

right now i am not, i am using my marantz pm8006 (power amp mode) and using the ultra as pre amp and streamer. the volume i regulate with the ultra.

 

[jdavis417]

Well shoot, I went and turned off room correction and equalization and it sounded pretty-darned bright to me! That wasn't my initial impression, as I recall.

Oh well, let us know your experiences and I'll see if I can get some overtime

 

[catchmeifyoucan]

yeah, it helps to change de dac filter. Minimum slow roll off worked to some extend. But overall i feel like its not super musical. I ones heard older gear ( pre amps from the 70s) that sounded my warmer and more soulful. I guess there are people who like that analytical sound where you can hear every little details but for me that doesnt make it nice to listen to.

 

[dominikz]

I am interested if the pre-gain settings and/or output voltage affect overall sound signature? It might be something to consider?

There are two answers to this, depending on perspective:

1. From a technical perspectivethere is no change to the 'sound' until you either hit the Ultra internal limiter at 0dBFS, or if you overdrive the input of the next stage. Below those limits the pre-gain and output voltage will work pretty much like additional volume controls.
   • Here's an oversimplified example: assuming some (pre)amp starts to clip with 1V input, if you set the Ultra pre-gain and voltage to produce anything below that you always get the same 'sound' - i.e. same spectral balance and no added distortion.
     In this same example going above 1V output from the Ultra would result in progressive amount of distortion added to the signal, which could at some point start to be perceived as additional brightness and crunchiness.
2. From an auditory perception perspective humans hearing simply becomes less sensitive to bass and very high treble as playback level is reduced (look up "equal-loudness contours"). So you may perceive some tonality change as you decrease pre-gain and/or output voltage due to the simple difference in overall level and human hearing non-linearity. This is one of the reasons why we often associate louder=better, and why some devices implement "dynamic loudness"/"dynamic bass"/"dynamic EQ" type functions.

 

[catchmeifyoucan]

Just note that if you do this you will still need to control the volume on the Ultra (and not on your external preamp), as that is the only way to ensure subwoofer and loudspeaker relative volumes remain consistent.

If I may suggest a potential alternative solution: if you want to make the Ultra sound warmer, try configuring a single high-shelf PEQ as a treble control, and decrease its gain until you find the tonality more pleasing:

• Treble Control (high-shelf):
  • Filter type=HS
  • Freq=4000Hz
  • Gain=according to your preference
  • Q=0.70

(Concept from this post)

Good luck!

i tried this last weekend. its has quite a nice effect. The sabre dac is known, to me , for having a bit of sibilance at the topend. This trick takes care of that. please know that my room is far from ideal and narrow so there are a lot of reflections that make that sibilance worse then it actually is, but the result is that i often have to turn the volume down at higher volumes because its too sharp.

btw just to test, i ordered an smsl d1 dac from amazon to test if it sounds better. just for fun.

 

[dominikz]

The sabre dac is known, to me , for having a bit of sibilance at the topend.

This is commonly repeated on the web, but I hope you won't mind me advising to be sceptical about such statements.

Any impact of (non-broken) DACs on sound quality is completely overshadowed by variability of recording quality, by loudspeaker response variability, effect of placement of loudspeakers/subwoofers (and their integration), and effects of room acoustics.

E.g. differences in DAC frequency response will be a fraction of a dB here and there (likely inaudible), whereas a loudspeaker in a room will often have 10-20dB swings in it's frequency response, which changes significantly with small changes in position (VERY audible).

As such, reliably comparing the sound of DACs is difficult because a) not all DACs will produce the same playback level, and b) because all of these other factors I listed above contribute to the differences heard.

So while it is easy for most people to hear differences when informally listening to different DACs, often these perceived differences have nothing to do with the DACs 'sound profile', and consequently they tend to disappear in formal listening tests (where all of the other variables are controlled for).

This trick takes care of that. please know that my room is far from ideal and narrow so there are a lot of reflections that make that sibilance worse then it actually is, but the result is that i often have to turn the volume down at higher volumes because its too sharp.

I'm happy you found the suggested PEQ helpful!

You are right, small reflective rooms can make the sound brighter, and some loudspeakers are bright as well, which can make the issue worse. Additionally, some people are just more sensitive to bright sounds, or simply prefer less treble.

Luckily, carefully applied EQ helps mitigate such issues - that's what it was designed to do!

Hope you enjoy your system!

 

[catchmeifyoucan]

so in your opinion, changing dacs to alter the sound is also not really useful then ?

 

[dominikz]

so in your opinion, changing dacs to alter the sound is also not really useful then ?

Exactly right! Admittedly it is an unpopular opinion in some audiophile circles, but it is actually supported by pretty solid evidence.

On the other hand, EQ was originally created for the sole purpose to allow us to alter the sound in specific and predictable ways. It is a tool meant for this exact task!

Still, to get the best sound quality ideally we want to start with good loudspeakers (i.e. smooth dispersion with flattish on-axis and low distortion), which are placed optimally in the room (to avoid SBIR notches) and corrected for any bass resonances (with e.g. RoomFit). I wrote more about optimal placement in this post. Note that the room doesn't have to be acoustically treated, but also shouldn't be highly reflective (normally furnished residential rooms are usually more-or-less OK). Very small rooms are more of a challenge, however!

Then EQ bass/treble controls (like suggested here) can be very effectively used to fine-tune tonality to taste!

 

[catchmeifyoucan]

i do agree with you, i tested several dacs and even though there is a slight difference.. its not day and night.
if you change the dac filter of the wiim ultra you can also hear a slight difference each time you switch. id like to think that a company like topping or smsl could make a new dac release for each of those filter changes if they wanted to and people would think its awesome.