Ultra - Sub cuts out at low volume

[SoFluffy]

Very excited to get my new WiiM Ultra 2 days ago! It's replacing a WiiM Pro (w/ SMSL DL200 DAC), mostly for the LP/HP crossover and screen. (I had the usual issues without HP of getting the balance correct, and the bass thru my main speakers causing distortion at higher volumes, which the Ultra's crossover solves.)

After dialing everything in, the sub is not being consistent and is dropping out. Don't judge my taste in music, but for example, the Dasha song "Austin" has a very steady 4 on the floor kick drum, and maybe 20% of them are just gone. Playing other tracks with more steady and deeper bass, the sub is fluctuating, with these brief moments where there is seemingly nothing coming thru the sub.

I downloaded a 40hz test tone and routed just the sub output to an old Alesis Masterlink ML-9600 analog input. After some testing here, it appears that this is only happening at low volumes and/or some sort of combination of that and using the Volume Limiter. For instance, setting fixed volume output with 100% limit, the test tone is steady (and confirmed with the digital VU meter on the ML-9600). Because I want to keep the amp at 100% volume, I really want to use the Volume limiter to about 50% so I don't ever accidently blow the speakers. So, having the Volume limited to ~50% and then listening at lower volumes, the sub is absolutely cutting out, also confirmed via the ML-9600. I listen at low volumes often, especially while working and/or if my kid is in the next room sleeping.

It's as if there is some internal minimum volume gate that is happening. With the steady and constant test tone, everything is fine until I lower the volume to a certain point and then it just brick wall drops out completely, even though the WiiM is still at 20-30% volume. (This somewhat explains why with actual melodic audio it appears to fluctuate.) If I instead keep the WiiM's Volume Limiter at 100% and turn down the amp's volume (and reduce the volume directly on the sub's settings) then there is no issue. This workaround is OK, except I have these Fosi V3 monos (that don't have volume adjustment) ready to also be put in place.

For repro reference, my setup is:

• WiiM Ultra (Fixed volume at 50%)
  • RCA to Fosi ZA3 (100% volume)
    • KEF Q150
  • RCA to SVS 3000 Micro (-2db volume)
    • LFE (LP crossover disabled on sub)
  • Crossover set at 120hz (but isue repros wherever this is set)

Side note that I have a WiiM Amp on a second setup in my house and have no sub issues with even very low volume listening.

Edit: Additional testing - If I disable the sub out and connect the subwoofer from the main L/R outs, the issue does not repro. It's only happening via the RCA sub out and crossover enabled at low volume.

 

[Smartplug]

Very excited to get my new WiiM Ultra 2 days ago! It's replacing a WiiM Pro (w/ SMSL DL200 DAC), mostly for the LP/HP crossover and screen. (I had the usual issues without HP of getting the balance correct, and the bass thru my main speakers causing distortion at higher volumes, which the Ultra's crossover solves.)

After dialing everything in, the sub is not being consistent and is dropping out. Don't judge my taste in music, but for example, the Dasha song "Austin" has a very steady 4 on the floor kick drum, and maybe 20% of them are just gone. Playing other tracks with more steady and deeper bass, the sub is fluctuating, with these brief moments where there is seemingly nothing coming thru the sub.

I downloaded a 40hz test tone and routed just the sub output to an old Alesis Masterlink ML-9600 analog input. After some testing here, it appears that this is only happening at low volumes and/or some sort of combination of that and using the Volume Limiter. For instance, setting fixed volume output with 100% limit, the test tone is steady (and confirmed with the digital VU meter on the ML-9600). Because I want to keep the amp at 100% volume, I really want to use the Volume limiter to about 50% so I don't ever accidently blow the speakers. So, having the Volume limited to ~50% and then listening at lower volumes, the sub is absolutely cutting out, also confirmed via the ML-9600. I listen at low volumes often, especially while working and/or if my kid is in the next room sleeping.

It's as if there is some internal minimum volume gate that is happening. With the steady and constant test tone, everything is fine until I lower the volume to a certain point and then it just brick wall drops out completely, even though the WiiM is still at 20-30% volume. (This somewhat explains why with actual melodic audio it appears to fluctuate.) If I instead keep the WiiM's Volume Limiter at 100% and turn down the amp's volume (and reduce the volume directly on the sub's settings) then there is no issue. This workaround is OK, except I have these Fosi V3 monos (that don't have volume adjustment) ready to also be put in place.

For repro reference, my setup is:

• WiiM Ultra (Fixed volume at 50%)
  • RCA to Fosi ZA3 (100% volume)
    • KEF Q150
  • RCA to SVS 3000 Micro (-2db volume)
    • LFE (LP crossover disabled on sub)
  • Crossover set at 120hz (but isue repros wherever this is set)

Side note that I have a WiiM Amp on a second setup in my house and have no sub issues with even very low volume listening.

Edit: Additional testing - If I disable the sub out and connect the subwoofer from the main L/R outs, the issue does not repro. It's only happening via the RCA sub out and crossover enabled at low volume.

Side note that I have a WiiM Amp on a second setup in my house and have no sub issues with even very low volume listening.

Integesting about ultra, I have wiim amp and it has no issue on any volume level. Please send message via wiim app so they can look at your log and fix it. This extremely important to me since I’m getting ultra and will be listening low level during the night with sub.

 

[Smartplug]

there are some users having issue on phono and now subwoofer getting disconnected on low level. I wonder what would be the next issue.

 

[harkpabst]

there are some users having issue on phono and now subwoofer getting disconnected on low level. I wonder what would be the next issue.

Very helpful.

Very excited to get my new WiiM Ultra 2 days ago! It's replacing a WiiM Pro (w/ SMSL DL200 DAC), mostly for the LP/HP crossover and screen. (I had the usual issues without HP of getting the balance correct, and the bass thru my main speakers causing distortion at higher volumes, which the Ultra's crossover solves.)

After dialing everything in, the sub is not being consistent and is dropping out. Don't judge my taste in music, but for example, the Dasha song "Austin" has a very steady 4 on the floor kick drum, and maybe 20% of them are just gone. Playing other tracks with more steady and deeper bass, the sub is fluctuating, with these brief moments where there is seemingly nothing coming thru the sub.

I downloaded a 40hz test tone and routed just the sub output to an old Alesis Masterlink ML-9600 analog input. After some testing here, it appears that this is only happening at low volumes and/or some sort of combination of that and using the Volume Limiter. For instance, setting fixed volume output with 100% limit, the test tone is steady (and confirmed with the digital VU meter on the ML-9600). Because I want to keep the amp at 100% volume, I really want to use the Volume limiter to about 50% so I don't ever accidently blow the speakers. So, having the Volume limited to ~50% and then listening at lower volumes, the sub is absolutely cutting out, also confirmed via the ML-9600. I listen at low volumes often, especially while working and/or if my kid is in the next room sleeping.

It's as if there is some internal minimum volume gate that is happening. With the steady and constant test tone, everything is fine until I lower the volume to a certain point and then it just brick wall drops out completely, even though the WiiM is still at 20-30% volume. (This somewhat explains why with actual melodic audio it appears to fluctuate.) If I instead keep the WiiM's Volume Limiter at 100% and turn down the amp's volume (and reduce the volume directly on the sub's settings) then there is no issue. This workaround is OK, except I have these Fosi V3 monos (that don't have volume adjustment) ready to also be put in place.

For repro reference, my setup is:

• WiiM Ultra (Fixed volume at 50%)
  • RCA to Fosi ZA3 (100% volume)
    • KEF Q150
  • RCA to SVS 3000 Micro (-2db volume)
    • LFE (LP crossover disabled on sub)
  • Crossover set at 120hz (but isue repros wherever this is set)

Side note that I have a WiiM Amp on a second setup in my house and have no sub issues with even very low volume listening.

Edit: Additional testing - If I disable the sub out and connect the subwoofer from the main L/R outs, the issue does not repro. It's only happening via the RCA sub out and crossover enabled at low volume.

Does your subwoofer have an auto-on feature?

If so (and if you want to keep it), increase the sub volume in the WiiM Home app and decrease the volume setting your sub. No need to take small steps, increase in WiiM Home by 5 or 6 dB and decrease on the sub until the levels match.

 

[SoFluffy]

Does your subwoofer have an auto-on feature?

That was my first thought too - maybe the subwoofer itself doesn't like the low signal, but the SVS 3000 Micro doesn't do that. Related side note - I was all ready to purchase the KEF KC62 until I read that it only has Standby mode (apparently due to some EU regulations), with many folks complaining that it goes to Standby during quiet listening. That alone pushed me to the cheaper SVS 3000 Micro which has a true "always on" mode. (I utilize the 12V trigger as well, which is very useful.) To be fair, I unplugged the 12V trigger when testing to ensure that wasn't at play. Also, if I bypass the sub out and just wire the L/R to the sub directly, it doesn't cut out at low volumes.

WiiM Support has ack'd my ticket. I'll keep this thread appraised. I'm really really hoping this is fixable via firmware, because this Ultra is pretty darn awesome and checks all the boxes for my current needs (outside this specific issue of course). I'll gladly pay the early adoption tax, with patience, if this helps make the product perfect.

 

[harkpabst]

That was my first thought too - maybe the subwoofer itself doesn't like the low signal, but the SVS 3000 Micro doesn't do that

Hmmm ... just looking at the back plate tells me that the 3000 Micros does have a switchable Auto On feature ...



... and the website confirms this (of course):



Apparently, the colour of the LED should indicate which mode is currently in use.

Can you double and triple check that Auto On is really not enabled?

My Ultra is connected to a sub with a mechanical on/off/auto switch (which is set to on) and I never observed this behaviour in weeks of usage.

Using the unfiltered line out directly into the sub for testing was a good idea, but it's not necessarily reliable. The full range signal will contain more energy and in particular more spikes than the low pass filtered sub signal.

 

[pipemarsiglia]

Very excited to get my new WiiM Ultra 2 days ago! It's replacing a WiiM Pro (w/ SMSL DL200 DAC), mostly for the LP/HP crossover and screen. (I had the usual issues without HP of getting the balance correct, and the bass thru my main speakers causing distortion at higher volumes, which the Ultra's crossover solves.)

After dialing everything in, the sub is not being consistent and is dropping out. Don't judge my taste in music, but for example, the Dasha song "Austin" has a very steady 4 on the floor kick drum, and maybe 20% of them are just gone. Playing other tracks with more steady and deeper bass, the sub is fluctuating, with these brief moments where there is seemingly nothing coming thru the sub.

I downloaded a 40hz test tone and routed just the sub output to an old Alesis Masterlink ML-9600 analog input. After some testing here, it appears that this is only happening at low volumes and/or some sort of combination of that and using the Volume Limiter. For instance, setting fixed volume output with 100% limit, the test tone is steady (and confirmed with the digital VU meter on the ML-9600). Because I want to keep the amp at 100% volume, I really want to use the Volume limiter to about 50% so I don't ever accidently blow the speakers. So, having the Volume limited to ~50% and then listening at lower volumes, the sub is absolutely cutting out, also confirmed via the ML-9600. I listen at low volumes often, especially while working and/or if my kid is in the next room sleeping.

It's as if there is some internal minimum volume gate that is happening. With the steady and constant test tone, everything is fine until I lower the volume to a certain point and then it just brick wall drops out completely, even though the WiiM is still at 20-30% volume. (This somewhat explains why with actual melodic audio it appears to fluctuate.) If I instead keep the WiiM's Volume Limiter at 100% and turn down the amp's volume (and reduce the volume directly on the sub's settings) then there is no issue. This workaround is OK, except I have these Fosi V3 monos (that don't have volume adjustment) ready to also be put in place.

For repro reference, my setup is:

• WiiM Ultra (Fixed volume at 50%)
  • RCA to Fosi ZA3 (100% volume)
    • KEF Q150
  • RCA to SVS 3000 Micro (-2db volume)
    • LFE (LP crossover disabled on sub)
  • Crossover set at 120hz (but isue repros wherever this is set)

Side note that I have a WiiM Amp on a second setup in my house and have no sub issues with even very low volume listening.

Edit: Additional testing - If I disable the sub out and connect the subwoofer from the main L/R outs, the issue does not repro. It's only happening via the RCA sub out and crossover enabled at low volume.

Hi, my setup is very similar to yours.
I have the Wiim Ultra, a Loxjie A30 amplifier, Kef Q150 speakers and a SVS 3000 micro subwoofer.

Wiim Ultra to Loxjie A30 via RCA Cable - SVS 3000 micro connected to the Wiim Ultra.

I haven't had these problems, although it was a bit difficult for me to configure the subwoofer when including the Wiim Ultra, I'm sharing my configurations with you in case they help you. My recommendation is that you control the volume from the Wiim Ultra, otherwise, you will always have problems with the subwoofer integration.

AMP:
Max volume. which I always decrease to 1 before turning it off.

SVS APP
Basically everything off or in default (Because you are going to control the subwoofer integration in the WiiM app)
Home / Volume: 0 db
Low Pass Filter: Off
Phase: 0º
Polarity: Positive
PEQ: Disabled
Room Gain: Off
System Settings: Subwoofer Standby ON (Default)

WiiM Home App
Audio Settings
Fixed Volume output: Off
Line out level: 2Vrms
Volume limit: 100%
Subwoofer
Sub output: On
Level: -5db (or 0db or your preference, depending on how much bass you want to perceive and the type of music you listen)
Crossover Frequency: 60hz (Recommended by SVS considering the roll off of the Kef q150)
Phase: 0º

Edit: I remember when I was setting everything up, I had a problem with the subwoofer cable - SVS SoundPath Subwoofer Cable - because it didn't fit completely into the Wii Ultra's subwoofer out and I didn't want to force it too much, so I connected it with another cable that fit completely without any problem - Mediabridge ULTRA Series Subwoofer Cable -

 

[harkpabst]

Crossover Frequency: 60hz (Recommended by SVS considering the roll off of the Kef q150)
Phase: 0º

Did you try higher crossover frequencies?

This SVS recommendation is based on the (wrong) assumption that the Q150 are not high pass filtered. There's really nothing to "match" to the speakers here.

I would definitely try 80 Hz or even 100 Hz. This will result in less harmonic distortion and intermodulation distortion from the Q150. With it's coaxial design, even the tweeter will benefit from less cone movement of the mid-bass driver.

I have the LS50 Meta in my main system crossed at 200 Hz with great success, but this requires stereo subs, not available with WiiM devices so far.

 

[pipemarsiglia]

Did you try higher crossover frequencies?

This SVS recommendation is based on the (wrong) assumption that the Q150 are not high pass filtered. There's really nothing to "match" to the speakers here.

I would definitely try 80 Hz or even 100 Hz. This will result in less harmonic distortion and intermodulation distortion from the Q150. With it's coaxial design, even the tweeter will benefit from less cone movement of the mid-bass driver.

I have the LS50 Meta in my main system crossed at 200 Hzwith great success, but this requires stereo subs, not available with WiiM devices so far.

Ok, will try!

 

[Dennis from Venice]

That was my first thought too - maybe the subwoofer itself doesn't like the low signal, but the SVS 3000 Micro doesn't do that. Related side note - I was all ready to purchase the KEF KC62 until I read that it only has Standby mode (apparently due to some EU regulations), with many folks complaining that it goes to Standby during quiet listening. That alone pushed me to the cheaper SVS 3000 Micro which has a true "always on" mode. (I utilize the 12V trigger as well, which is very useful.) To be fair, I unplugged the 12V trigger when testing to ensure that wasn't at play. Also, if I bypass the sub out and just wire the L/R to the sub directly, it doesn't cut out at low volumes.

WiiM Support has ack'd my ticket. I'll keep this thread appraised. I'm really really hoping this is fixable via firmware, because this Ultra is pretty darn awesome and checks all the boxes for my current needs (outside this specific issue of course). I'll gladly pay the early adoption tax, with patience, if this helps make the product perfect.

A side note….I have the KEF kc 65 sub with LS50 Metas and the sub did indeed cut out at low volume. But one of the circuits failed and I got a new sub under warranty. The newer model doesn’t cut out….I think they fixed it but it still is always in standby.

 

[SoFluffy]

Thanks @pipemarsiglia for confirming no issues with the same speakers and sub that I'm using. (Our different amplifiers aren't at play here so this is the best apples to apples comparison I could hope for.)

@harkpabst - I have confirmed the Standby settings on the sub itself, and in the SVS app. Everything is good there.

I don't want this to turn into a "where to set the crossover" thread, but I don't subscribe to the standard logic of setting it just above the main speakers' F3. I even find that different genres of music (or TV/movies) sound better with different crossover points, and I find myself adjusting it anywhere between 80hz-120hz depending on what I'm listening to. For instance, a cello's low C is ~65hz, and I find an 80hz or lower crossover sounds better to me for classical music, allowing a more natural timbre of the strings, whereas other genres sound better at 100hz or even 120hz. (Yet I've seen someone else say they like it set higher for classical, so to each their own. The only right answer is what sounds good to you in your room.) A single sub's crossover being too high ruins imaging, so agreed that a higher crossover could adversely impact the overall sound, probably only to be advised if using dual stereo subs.

Back to the topic - The mystery deepens. I have had time to just experiment more today, and able to listen at higher volumes. I've set the Volume Limit back to 100% for now. While there still seems to be this brick wall threshold when listening at low volume levels, there are drop-outs constantly even at higher volumes. With a lower crossover point, it wasn't as noticeable at higher volumes, but it's absolutely just cutting out. I put on some music that I know very well and tried to forget about it and focus on work. I was hoping after some time any confirmation bias would be forgotten, and I hoped to then just think that I was crazy and it was all in my head. But OMG, it got sooo distracting and I had to turn it off after 45 minutes.

My wonder shifted to the sub itself, and I thought maybe it had been cutting out when on the Fosi, but without the HP filter on the mains I just never noticed. Were the Q150s pushing enough bass to mask this? So I did an AB test back and forth for the past hour with just the subwoofer, no mains.

A) Subwoofer connected to WiiM Ultra:

• WiiM crossover set at 100hz
• Volume Limit set to 100%
• Sub LFE, no crossover
• Fosi amp turned off (no L/R speakers)

B) Subwoofer connected to Fosi:

• WiiM sub/crossover disabled
• Volume Limit set to 100%
• WiiM Sub crossover set at 100hz w/ -24db slope (I think this mimics the WiiM's slope)
• L/R speaker cables disconnected from Fosi

The sub dropouts are very noticeable with A (WiiM subwoofer setup), and do not happen at all on B. Listening to only the sub without the mains makes the issue more apparent. If nobody else can reproduce this, I'm beginning to think I got a faulty unit.

 

[Smartplug]

Has anyone using sub has this problem?

 

[pipemarsiglia]

My wonder shifted to the sub itself, and I thought maybe it had been cutting out when on the Fosi, but without the HP filter on the mains I just never noticed. Were the Q150s pushing enough bass to mask this? So I did an AB test back and forth for the past hour with just the subwoofer, no mains.

A) Subwoofer connected to WiiM Ultra:

• WiiM crossover set at 100hz
• Volume Limit set to 100%
• Sub LFE, no crossover
• Fosi amp turned off (no L/R speakers)

B) Subwoofer connected to Fosi:

• WiiM sub/crossover disabled
• Volume Limit set to 100%
• WiiM Sub crossover set at 100hz w/ -24db slope (I think this mimics the WiiM's slope)
• L/R speaker cables disconnected from Fosi

The sub dropouts are very noticeable with A (WiiM subwoofer setup), and do not happen at all on B. Listening to only the sub without the mains makes the issue more apparent. If nobody else can reproduce this, I'm beginning to think I got a faulty unit.

I agree with your conclusion, I think something (probably the Sub output) on your Wiim Ultra is faulty.

Just out of curiosity, does the sub cable fit completely into the sub output on the WiiM ultra? With the SVS cable it was impossible for me, the metal part of the plug hit the chassis of the Ultra and did not allow it to enter completely.

 

[harkpabst]

The sub dropouts are very noticeable with A (WiiM subwoofer setup), and do not happen at all on B. Listening to only the sub without the mains makes the issue more apparent.

Simply connect the Wiim Ultra's sub out to one of the channels of the Loxjie A30, still connected to the Q150 and see if it cuts out. Leave the other input unconnected if it helps.

If there are still cut outs the Ultra is to blame for sure.

 

[Dennis from Venice]

I got my Ultra today and was off to a rocky start. I replaced my RP4/DAC with balanced output to my Type AB amp and sub. Well, the setup went smoothly until I played a song and NO SOUND !!! I tried everything including deleting the app and resetting the Ultra. An hour or two later I remembered the amp has a switch for balanced or unbalanced and was still set for the old setup. A button push and SOUND !!!! Beautiful sound.

My next problem is Roon doesn’t see the chromecast. I enabled it in the WiiM app and it appears correctly in Google Home, but Roon doesn’t have it in “Other Network Devices"

 

[Mr Ee]

I got my Ultra today and was off to a rocky start. I replaced my RP4/DAC with balanced output to my Type AB amp and sub. Well, the setup went smoothly until I played a song and NO SOUND !!! I tried everything including deleting the app and resetting the Ultra. An hour or two later I remembered the amp has a switch for balanced or unbalanced and was still set for the old setup. A button push and SOUND !!!! Beautiful sound.

My next problem is Roon doesn’t see the chromecast. I enabled it in the WiiM app and it appears correctly in Google Home, but Roon doesn’t have it in “Other Network Devices"

Glad you finally got sound
Did you add the wiim to a room in google home?
No idea if this helps roon, but it seems to be necessary for a number of other things to find CC devices.

 

[Dennis from Venice]

Yes…I added it to a room with Google Home and set sharing to on

I also tried waiting a long time…..it isn’t showing up. I did get JRiver to play via DLNA…….and Tidal and QOBUZ are working. Everything except chromecast.

UPDATE: Success! I added the Ultra to a Google Home GROUP and that worked….the Group name appeared on Roon and I was able to ENABLE it. Go figure.

 

[Mr Ee]

Yes…I added it to a room with Google Home and set sharing to on

I also tried waiting a long time…..it isn’t showing up. I did get JRiver to play via DLNA…….and Tidal and QOBUZ are working. Everything except chromecast.

Is it just roon that can't see it via CC?
When you say Qobuz works, is that within the wiim app, or the Qobuz app playing via... chromecast!?

Oh, and we seem to be a bit off topic here... oops.

 

[Dennis from Venice]

Is it just roon that can't see it via CC?
When you say Qobuz works, is that within the wiim app, or the Qobuz app playing via... chromecast!?

Oh, and we seem to be a bit off topic here... oops.

Qobuz and Tidal work both in Roon and in the Wiim app.

And we are definitely off topic. And only Roon couldn’t see the CC until I put it in a group

 

[harkpabst]

Qobuz and Tidal work both in Roon and in the Wiim app.

And we are definitely off topic. And only Roon couldn’t see the CC until I put it in a group

How's the sub doing? Does it cut out?