Amp advice.

[Bruce101]

I have just got the Ultra. I have set it up using the Musical Fidelity A3cr dual mono power amplifier running a pair of Monitor Audio silver 8i speakers.
My question, the amp is 25 years old. At the time it blew anything away at the price point (£1000) and punched well above it's not inconsiderable weight. (15kg) It's still sounds great. But I haven't kept up with the technology shift and digital tech.

Have I been left behind with the sound quality. Am I about to be blown away by something half the size with chips rather than toroidal transformers? Or is my trusty MF still giving great punch for my pounds?

I know sound is subjective. And I'm not looking for the definitive answer. Just people's general thoughts really.

Cheers, Bruce.

 

[Wiimer]

I have just got the Ultra. I have set it up using the Musical Fidelity A3cr dual mono power amplifier running a pair of Monitor Audio silver 8i speakers.
My question, the amp is 25 years old. At the time it blew anything away at the price point (£1000) and punched well above it's not inconsiderable weight. (15kg) It's still sounds great. But I haven't kept up with the technology shift and digital tech.

Have I been left behind with the sound quality. Am I about to be blown away by something half the size with chips rather than toroidal transformers? Or is my trusty MF still giving great punch for my pounds?

I know sound is subjective. And I'm not looking for the definitive answer. Just people's general thoughts really.

Cheers, Bruce.

Hi

Non-audiophile opinion.
As long as the amplifier components have not deteriorated, it should not be a problem.
Having said that, high-performance D-class amplifiers can be obtained very low price, so it's not a bad idea to give them a try.
It all depends on you .

 

[Vignus]

Have I been left behind with the sound quality. Am I about to be blown away by something half the size with chips rather than toroidal transformers? Or is my trusty MF still giving great punch for my pounds?

Cheers, Bruce.

It depends on what you end up reading. I happen to read about many people beeing blown away by how an old amp sounds... You just have to test it for yourself, if you have that option

 

[Anynameyouwish]

I've also just bought a WiiM Ultra, and swap it between a Sony STR DN 1080 amp, and a Pioneer Precision amp that is 30-years-old.
Both sound great, but I think the Pioneer has a 'better' sound somehow. The bass seems to be tighter or more refined. Whatever the words are to describe the difference, it's enjoyable to the ear.

 

[harkpabst]

I have just got the Ultra. I have set it up using the Musical Fidelity A3cr dual mono power amplifier running a pair of Monitor Audio silver 8i speakers.
My question, the amp is 25 years old. At the time it blew anything away at the price point (£1000) and punched well above it's not inconsiderable weight. (15kg) It's still sounds great. But I haven't kept up with the technology shift and digital tech.

Have I been left behind with the sound quality. Am I about to be blown away by something half the size with chips rather than toroidal transformers? Or is my trusty MF still giving great punch for my pounds?

I know sound is subjective. And I'm not looking for the definitive answer. Just people's general thoughts really.

Easy. Just upgrade your Elys 2 to an ND5 and you're done.

The above comment is actually only half funny. The new ND cartridges are really, really, really so much better than the previous pickups. But it's totally off topic, of course.

On topic, I'm with the best @Wiimer of them all, as usual. Chances are, you'll never ever want to part from that A3cr (and might regret if you did). But very high quality class d amps (explicitly including the WiiM Vibelink Amp) can be had pretty cheap these days. You won't have to trade in your trustworthy A3rc to try one.

 

[Suntoucher]

I have just got the Ultra. I have set it up using the Musical Fidelity A3cr dual mono power amplifier running a pair of Monitor Audio silver 8i speakers.
My question, the amp is 25 years old. At the time it blew anything away at the price point (£1000) and punched well above it's not inconsiderable weight. (15kg) It's still sounds great. But I haven't kept up with the technology shift and digital tech.

Have I been left behind with the sound quality. Am I about to be blown away by something half the size with chips rather than toroidal transformers? Or is my trusty MF still giving great punch for my pounds?

I know sound is subjective. And I'm not looking for the definitive answer. Just people's general thoughts really.

Cheers, Bruce.

I would keep the amp... i doubt that a budget class D amp will provide the control and authority of your A3cr... it would even be worth changing the capacitors if necessary some day.
The classic amplifier circuits are not outdated and unless you spend at least more than 1000 BP to get a decent substitute, it is hard to find a competitor.
If you go Class D, i would recommend at least amplification with Purify Eigentakt technology such as this contender...

AUDIOPHONICS HPA-INT450ET Integrated Amplifier

Audiophonics is proud to present the HPA-INT450ET. This Class D integrated amplifier relies on a pair of Purifi 1ET6525SA amplifier modules.

www.audiophonics.fr

NAD also makes a high quality amp using similar technology...

NAD Intros C 298 Power Amplifier With Purifi Eigentakt Amplification - NAD Electronics

NAD Electronics, a leading manufacturer of premium home audio and video products, announced another high- performance amplifier that uses Purifi Eigentakt™ amplification technology. The C 298 is a two-channel powerhouse that is a perfect partner to high quality preamplifiers or in any...

nadelectronics.com

You may also look for products from Apollon and other companies specialising in high quality modular amp design.

Just my 50 cent...

 

[harkpabst]

If you go Class D, i would recommend at least amplification with Purify Eigentakt technology such as this contender...

Since you recommend to go at least with Purifi Eigentakt when considering class D, may I ask what you consider better or even top end class D amplifiers?

 

[ahab]

I would keep the amp... i doubt that a budget class D amp will provide the control and authority of your A3cr... it would even be worth changing the capacitors if necessary some day.
The classic amplifier circuits are not outdated and unless you spend at least more than 1000 BP to get a decent substitute, it is hard to find a competitor.
If you go Class D, i would recommend at least amplification with Purify Eigentakt technology such as this contender...

AUDIOPHONICS HPA-INT450ET Integrated Amplifier

Audiophonics is proud to present the HPA-INT450ET. This Class D integrated amplifier relies on a pair of Purifi 1ET6525SA amplifier modules.

www.audiophonics.fr

NAD also makes a high quality amp using similar technology...

NAD Intros C 298 Power Amplifier With Purifi Eigentakt Amplification - NAD Electronics

NAD Electronics, a leading manufacturer of premium home audio and video products, announced another high- performance amplifier that uses Purifi Eigentakt™ amplification technology. The C 298 is a two-channel powerhouse that is a perfect partner to high quality preamplifiers or in any...

nadelectronics.com

You may also look for products from Apollon and other companies specialising in high quality modular amp design.

Just my 50 cent...

I have a purifi based amp and couldnt be happier. Also ncore based amps are in same class as purifi. Based on these great modules is the IOM Ultra which was physically designed to fot the wiim ultra size and looks.

 

[Bruce101]

Easy. Just upgrade your Elys 2 to an ND5 and you're done.

The above comment is actually only half funny. The new ND cartridges are really, really, really so much better than the previous pickups. But it's totally off topic, of course.

On topic, I'm with the best @Wiimer of them all, as usual. Chances are, you'll never ever want to part from that A3cr (and might regret if you did). But very high quality class d amps (explicitly including the WiiM Vibelink Amp) can be had pretty cheap these days. You won't have to trade in your trustworthy A3rc to try one.

Will wait to see if WiiM come out with a pure power amp ultra box thing. Proper tech term there. See how it compares.
Thank you everyone

 

[harkpabst]

Will wait to see if WiiM come out with a pure power amp ultra box thing.

I wouldn't bet my money on this happening, but there's nothing wrong with waiting. It's not like you're without music in the meantime.

 

[hoohoohoo]

But very high quality class d amps (explicitly including the WiiM Vibelink Amp) can be had pretty cheap these days. You won't have to trade in your trustworthy A3rc to try one.

@Bruce101 This is the key point -- Class D amps are so cheap and online vendors have lenient return policies. Try one out for a week and if you don't like it, send it back. If you want to support a local business, some have good policies for trying gear out in your home setup.

 

[Suntoucher]

Since you recommend to go at least with Purifi Eigentakt when considering class D, may I ask what you consider better or even top end class D amplifiers?

Considering module based amps, i would say that Hypex and Purify are the top contenders at the moment... one can find them in various amps.
Even traditional companies like Marantz or Teac make use of it.

Maybe going a step further there is for example Orchard Audio with its implementation of GaN technology, or Amped America using the Pascal platform.

Me personally i am a big fan of Lyngdorf and their unique approach of Equibit technology, going digital through all the stages.
The biggest bonus is the implementation of their room correction technology.
I use their amps since 2018 and love their absolute blackness and neutrality. Fuzz free and high quality made in Danmark.

 

[harkpabst]

Considering module based amps, i would say that Hypex and Purify are the top contenders at the moment... one can find them in various amps.
Even traditional companies like Marantz or Teac make use of it.

Good to see we're in agreement here.

Maybe going a step further there is for example Orchard Audio with its implementation of GaN technology, or Amped America using the Pascal platform.

With this ... maybe not so much. Admittedly, I never listened to any one of them, but didn't find the technical part convincing.

Me personally i am a big fan of Lyngdorf and their unique approach of Equibit technology, going digital through all the stages.
The biggest bonus is the implementation of their room correction technology.

I love my Lyngdorf, it's easily the best purchase in Hi-Fi I ever made. That's for the entire package including RoomPerfect and the brilliant web GUI and the incredible feature set.

But just talking about the technical side of the "power amp" ... well, Lyngdorf's Equibit goes back to original TacT Millennium, developed by nobody else but Lars Risbo, co-founder and one of the CTOs at Purifi. His fellow CTO and co-founder Bruno Putzeys likes to half jokingly call it "a bad idea, brilliantly executed". I think there's a reason why two of the most famous living engineers in amplifier design no longer follow that route (and it's certainly not just parents with these brilliant minds involved). Talking about pure measurements, the Lyngdorf amps are not the state of the art.

On the other hand, Lyngdorf did make the concept work with utmost reliability and the result is still my personal reference.

 

[Suntoucher]

Good to see we're in agreement here.


With this ... maybe not so much. Admittedly, I never listened to any one of them, but didn't find the technical part convincing.


I love my Lyngdorf, it's easily the best purchase in Hi-Fi I ever made. That's for the entire package including RoomPerfect and the brilliant web GUI and the incredible feature set.

But just talking about the technical side of the "power amp" ... well, Lyngdorf's Equibit goes back to original TacT Millennium, developed by nobody else but Lars Risbo, co-founder and one of the CTOs at Purifi. His fellow CTO and co-founder Bruno Putzeys likes to half jokingly call it "a bad idea, brilliantly executed". I think there's a reason why two of the most famous living engineers in amplifier design no longer follow that route (and it's certainly not just parents with these brilliant minds involved). Talking about pure measurements, the Lyngdorf amps are not the state of the art.

On the other hand, Lyngdorf did make the concept work with utmost reliability and the result is still my personal reference.

Measurements are not so much in my focus... if it measures excellent, it does not necessarily sound excellent. Remember the days when the Japanese had these big & heavy amps that had excellent specs in their line up... suddenly a small company called New Acoustic Dimension came up with a 300 DM flimsy grey flea powered amplifier 3020... this was the beginning of a new era.
Many others followed, so to name Nytech, Onix, Mission, Moth... etc.
Even the small German company Fidelity had a brilliant sounding amp called "Student".

Amped America is one of 2 companies that have a licence for the Pascal technology... the other is Jeff Roland Design...
There is still room for improvements, but the outcome is promising.

Remember the old phrase: The best amp is a short piece of wire...

I prefer neutral components over sounding ones... my speakers & my room make the sound!

 

[taube Taube]

Have I been left behind with the sound quality. Am I about to be blown away by something half the size with chips rather than toroidal transformers?

I don't think so. Class D is not something worth chasing after, it is good for small rooms or cars, but not for your speakers with two pots in the bass. I searched for a long time and bought an amplifier of the classic layout with MOSFET transistors at the output, I am very pleased. But if you still buy something new, I am waiting for a direct comparison from you.

 

[harkpabst]

Remember the days when the Japanese had these big & heavy amps that had excellent specs in their line up... suddenly a small company called New Acoustic Dimension came up with a 300 DM flimsy grey flea powered amplifier 3020... this was the beginning of a new era.
Many others followed, so to name Nytech, Onix, Mission, Moth... etc.
Even the small German company Fidelity had a brilliant sounding amp called "Student".

I see, our ‘hi-fi socialisation’ took place at exactly the same time. Of course, I did own a 3020e, a Cyrus One, a Cyrus Two, a CA202 and CA252, a Nait 1 and some other Naim gear at some point. Right now I still own a CA102 Obelisk, but one channel died (like with so many of them) and I don't find the time to try and repair it.

But honestly, times have changed since.

It's not that BEE insisted on not taking measurements. He focused on other design aspects and technical specifications than others did before. And he did not rely on measurements, only, of course. Nowadays we not only have better measurement capabilities but also better components, better design tools and a better understanding of what's really going on. Even if e.g. the typical modern day class D amp doesn't offer way more "dynamic headroom" than continuous power (like e.g. the 3020 did), that's not really a drawback. Unlike those 1970s Japanese monster receivers they can dump loads of current into critical loads now and they are "fast". I can still enjoy listening to my Quad 306 and 606 power amps, but they sound no better than e.g. a WiiM Vibelink Amp and their noise performance is noticeably worse, even when re-capped and well looked after.

Remember the old phrase: The best amp is a short piece of wire...

A wire with gain, to be precise. But that old saying never meant to say that less components always results in better sound. Just remove anything from the circuit that's not really needed (but no more than that).

I prefer neutral components over sounding ones... my speakers & my room make the sound!

Nothing to object.

I don't think so. Class D is not something worth chasing after, it is good for small rooms or cars, but not for your speakers with two pots in the bass.

Some will agree, others will not. I surely don't. Even a good TPA325x implementation can easily drive speakers like the Silver 8i. I don't see any relation to the number of bass drivers at all.

Did you notice that the world's finest amplifiers for acoustical guitar do use class D amps?

 

[taube Taube]

relation to the number of bass drivers at all

Some may argue, others may not. The connection is not with the quantity, but with the overall power, and the drop in impedance at low frequencies. However, what did I want to say? It is unlikely to get better from replacing the amplifier with class D, why would it? So there is no need to rush to change.

the world's finest amplifiers for acoustical guitar do use class D amps

So the load is not difficult.

 

[slartibartfast]

Some may argue, others may not. The connection is not with the quantity, but with the overall power, and the drop in impedance at low frequencies. However, what did I want to say? It is unlikely to get better from replacing the amplifier with class D, why would it? So there is no need to rush to change.


So the load is not difficult.

Does the Silver 8i impedance drop below 4 Ohms at low frequency? The Silver 8 from 2015 doesn't.

 

[harkpabst]

Does the Silver 8i impedance drop below 4 Ohms at low frequency? The Silver 8 from 2015 doesn't.

Even if it did, it wouldn't really matter. Even cheap chip based amps like the WiiM Vibelink Amp can easily drive (reactive) loads down to below 3 ohm. PBTL designs like the 3e Audio A5 or A7 are not only stable but truly powerful down into 2 ohm loads, regardless of phase angle.

The connection is not with the quantity, but with the overall power, and the drop in impedance at low frequencies.

What power? Output power of the amp? This can be (and actually is) measured easily into all kinds of loads at any desired frequency. ASR have started to specifically measure power at low frequencies and into low ohmic loads. It's just a matter of output impedance over frequency. No secrets.

However, what did I want to say? It is unlikely to get better from replacing the amplifier with class D, why would it? So there is no need to rush to change.

I didn't say there would be, did I?

But somebody did argue that class D was for small rooms or cars only. Sorry, but no. This is simply not the case at all. And we don't have to talk high end designs like Purifi (or Hypex).