Difficult sub - What am I doing wrong?

[muteki_no]

Hi,

I have a Wiim Ultra connected to a Pioneer VSX-930 amp (home cinema amp that is only being used for stereo), with two floorstanding Dynavoice Magic F-6 v3.
I also have a Dali Sub E-12F onnected to the Wiim's sub output.

I am quite satisfied with the sound coming from the main speakers, but the subwoofer has been way too loud and overwhelming, to the point where having it on is actually disturbing.

I have gone through the obvious:
-Placement: It is not placed in a corner, it's between both main speakers, about 30cm from the wall.
-Volume: On the sub itself I can't have volume at more than 5%, otherwise bass is disturbing and takes over the rest. On the Wiim app, gain is at 0. But if I increase volume on the sub, I need to decrease gain in the app.
-Phase: I tried both settings and did room correction with both 0 and 180. Settled on 180 as it seemed the less aggressive.
-Crossover: On the sub, crossover is at max (since it has no effect), on the Wiim app I have tried 80hz, but it's very boomy. I've 60hz also but it didn't really improve anything in terms of "aggressiveness".
One strange thing I have noted in the Dali manual is: "NOTE: If you have connected the subwoofer via LFE instead of LINE IN you need to set the crossover point for your subwoofer to maximum in the menu of your surround sound (pre-)amplifier/receiver."
So I tried to set it at 240Hz and run room correction again. The results were... Better! Less aggressive bass, still a notch too noticeable, but definitely more integrated.

Does that mean I should set the crossover in the app at max?

I have run room correction with the sub and different crossover values and I always get a huge dip in 50Hz zone, where it needs to be attenuated at max value.

I am doing something wrong? What I am missing in order to have a harmonious subwoofer integration?

Thanks in advance

 

[Burnside]

See this post, and I’m sure @harkpabst will be along soon to further advise

https://forum.wiimhome.com/threads/sub-settings.5219/post-86329

 

[muteki_no]

Thanks for your reply.
I've seen that post and I've followed the advises there, but the sub was still too loud/overwhelming if I just did what was suggested.

 

[harkpabst]

I also have a Dali Sub E-12F onnected to the Wiim's sub output.

First things first: You cannot use the sub output of the WiiM Ultra if the Ultra is set to fixed volume output.
Period.

Since the VSX-930 is used for stereo only, you'll have to set it to one and the same fixed volume for every listening session and purely control the loudness through the WiiM Ultra. With this kind of setup you will be able to get it working using the guide mentioned by @Burnside.

One strange thing I have noted in the Dali manual is: "NOTE: If you have connected the subwoofer via LFE instead of LINE IN you need to set the crossover point for your subwoofer to maximum in the menu of your surround sound (pre-)amplifier/receiver."

This is just one bullet point in the description of the phase setting process. Once you settled for a phase setting (easier to do it in the WiiM Home app anyway) you must set the crossover frequency to a reasonable value, again. The whole idea behind the LFE input is that the subwoofer's own low pass filter is not applied, so you need it handled externally.

 

[DG77]

First things first: You cannot use the sub output of the WiiM Ultra if the Ultra is set to fixed volume output.

Sorry for butting in, I just ordered a sub for my setup and totally omitted this fact.
My use case is Wiim Ultra digitally connected (coax) to a Dali Connect box (for active speakers wirelessly) that manages volume, so according to your statement I will never be able to match volumes if I use the LFE out on Wiim right? Damn it, stupid stupid stupid does it again.

 

[muteki_no]

First things first: You cannot use the sub output of the WiiM Ultra if the Ultra is set to fixed volume output.
Period.

Since the VSX-930 is used for stereo only, you'll have to set it to one and the same fixed volume for every listening session and purely control the loudness through the WiiM Ultra. With this kind of setup you will be able to get it working using the guide mentioned by @Burnside.

That has been the case since the beginning: Volume on the Pioneer amp has been adjusted once, then all other volume adjustments have been done on the Wiim Ultra.

This is just one bullet point in the description of the phase setting process. Once you settled for a phase setting (easier to do it in the WiiM Home app anyway) you must set the crossover frequency to a reasonable value, again. The whole idea behind the LFE input is that the subwoofer's own low pass filter is not applied, so you need it handled externally.

I'll adjust the crossover to a reasonable value again, such as 80Hz and I'll do a room correction again.
But I've already been in that scenario and the sub was absolutely not pleasant. I guess that if it the sub is not "tamed" and is extremely boomy, I'll just leave it out and sell it.

 

[harkpabst]

Sorry for butting in, I just ordered a sub for my setup and totally omitted this fact.
My use case is Wiim Ultra digitally connected (coax) to a Dali Connect box (for active speakers wirelessly) that manages volume, so according to your statement I will never be able to match volumes if I use the LFE out on Wiim right? Damn it, stupid stupid stupid does it again.

You are well smart enough to find out what was stupid, then.

 

[harkpabst]

That has been the case since the beginning: Volume on the Pioneer amp has been adjusted once, then all other volume adjustments have been done on the Wiim Ultra.

What's your connection between the WiiM Ultra and the VSX-930? RCA, optical or coaxial?

If RCA, what output voltage did you select for the WiiM Ultra?

What volume setting do you have on the VSX-930? What's the typical volume setting on the Ultra for normal listening (omitting the sub for now)?

I guess that if it the sub is not "tamed" and is extremely boomy, I'll just leave it out and sell it.

I don't see a reason why you shouldn't get it to work properly. It's not like magic.

 

[muteki_no]

What's your connection between the WiiM Ultra and the VSX-930? RCA, optical or coaxial?

If RCA, what output voltage did you select for the WiiM Ultra?

What volume setting do you have on the VSX-930? What's the typical volume setting on the Ultra for normal listening (omitting the sub for now)?

I'm using optical between the Wiim Ultra and Pioneer receiver.
On the Pioneer the volume is at -25db, I haven't touched that, as mentioned before.
On the Ultra I am usually around 40-42.

I don't see a reason why you shouldn't get it to work properly. It's not like magic.

Well I have tried to set it up quite a few times with different settings, room correction, trying manually, adjusting latency etc.
As mentioned in my first post, two things have made me question if this sub is just "too powerful":
-I always get a dip in the lower frequencies as described here: https://forum.wiimhome.com/threads/room-correction-with-sub.4516/
The correction for those frequencies is at max (and sub volume is at 5%).
-When doing a "standard" setup (crossover at 80Hz + room correction), the sound I get is extremely tiresome because of the too heavy an not harmonious bass. After 10 mins I want to leave the room.

Thanks for your help!

 

[muteki_no]

I think I got it
At least I've been able to sit and listen to it for more than an hour and not get tired of the bass. It's obviously very low, but it blends well with the main speakers and most important it sound good to me.
What I did was set the sub crossover to 80Hz again and yet once again run a room calibration. Worked well this time.
I attached the room correction details in case something looks really wrong.

Thanks a lot for the help @harkpabst

 

[Burnside]

I think I got it
At least I've been able to sit and listen to it for more than an hour and not get tired of the bass. It's obviously very low, but it blends well with the main speakers and most important it sound good to me.
What I did was set the sub crossover to 80Hz again and yet once again run a room calibration. Worked well this time.
I attached the room correction details in case something looks really wrong.

Thanks a lot for the help @harkpabst

Told you he was the man

 

[harkpabst]

I think I got it
At least I've been able to sit and listen to it for more than an hour and not get tired of the bass. It's obviously very low, but it blends well with the main speakers and most important it sound good to me.
What I did was set the sub crossover to 80Hz again and yet once again run a room calibration. Worked well this time.
I attached the room correction details in case something looks really wrong.

Thanks a lot for the help @harkpabst

Results are looking quite good, but the correction is pretty hefty.

The DAC used in the WiiM Ultra is a lot newer (and generally considered pretty well implemented) than the one in the VSX-930. It might make sense sonically to connect the two via RCA instead of optical. This would give you some additional control over the output level of the Ultra, so maybe the difference in loudness would be less extreme.

Don't hesitate trying it out. I understand if you prefer to listen to some music right now.

 

[Smartplug]

Thanks for your reply.
I've seen that post and I've followed the advises there, but the sub was still too loud/overwhelming if I just did what was suggested.

Two answer your sub volume is high and high crossover. Play bass heavy music and adjust the volume just enough to put out weight on bottom octave without dominating the sound spectrum. Then run auto timing. I have 2 sub and sound was balanced and deep soundstage.

 

[muteki_no]

Results are looking quite good, but the correction is pretty hefty.

The DAC used in the WiiM Ultra is a lot newer (and generally considered pretty well implemented) than the one in the VSX-930. It might make sense sonically to connect the two via RCA instead of optical. This would give you some additional control over the output level of the Ultra, so maybe the difference in loudness would be less extreme.

Don't hesitate trying it out. I understand if you prefer to listen to some music right now.

Thanks again @harkpabst for your advice.
Wiim is outputting to the VSX-930 via RCA now. All good