Loudness mode (Equal-loudness contour, or Fletcher–Munson curves)

Discipulus

New member
Joined
Dec 29, 2023
Messages
2
The human ear can't hear bass or Treble very well at lower volumes. Thus, modern devices with DSP implement Equal Loudness EQ curves to make the perceived volume be the same across a wider range of frequencies at multiple volume levels.

This would be super helpful to implement in the WIIM side before sending to an AMP, as most folks don't have a loudness switch on modern amplifiers, or can't afford super expensive setups with DSP to accomplish this.

Right now I've optimized my setup for listening at about 80db. Lower volume than that, and it sounds thin and lacks bass. But if I optimize for 60db, then when I crank it up it sounds boomy. This is where Loudness mode comes in, to solve this problem. This is also why most bluetooth or smart speakers (such as Amazon Echo speakers) seem to sound so good at low volume - they use loudness and DSP to achieve a higher level of bass at low volumes and progressively less bass at higher volume to keep the same perceived volume.

Upvote if you want to see this feature in Wiim!

Wiki for reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot 2024-01-23 102116.png
    Screenshot 2024-01-23 102116.png
    86.1 KB · Views: 19
Much better to use a good quality analog EQ. Schiit Audio Loki. Set it flat for loud playback, flip the EQ on for Fletcher-Munson compensation.
 
Much better to use a good quality analog EQ. Schiit Audio Loki. Set it flat for loud playback, flip the EQ on for Fletcher-Munson compensation.
That is one solution, however it only allows for 2 listening levels. Loud and quiet. The equal loudness curves would cover the entire volume range.

Also I'm trying to get my partner to adopt the usage of my stereo system so making it sound great with minimal user input or complexity is key. She doesn't want to fiddle about with powering on multiple devices or flipping switches. She just wants to open the Spotify app on her phone and have it work.
 
Things like this do make me wonder what happened to loudness, I have a collection of vintage amps from the 70s onward, all of them until around 2010 had a loudness button, and the 70s and 80s units even had high and low pass filters, what happened to all of these controls?

This wouldn't be a bad feature for my wiimamp either
 
I can see that you must have a financial interest in analog EQ. :) But no, no dice.
No financial interest. Just an opinion that analog EQ, done right, causes less signal damage than digital EQ. Just my opinion. YMMV.
 
And it's far less practical and far less easy to do (and in my view even less useful) than most people think it is. Some reasons have already been named in the other request thread.

To add just one: Unless the correction knows how loud the sound is at your listening position (depending e.g. on speaker efficiency, listening distance and room layout) any such equalization (no matter how it's done) is just a rough estimation, anyway.
 
far less easy to do
It's true that this isn't easy to implement effectively - but not impossible.
For example, the RME ADI-2 DAC FS has an excellent implementation of Loudness (Contur). But the fact is that someone had to work hard on it.
Therefore, it could be a paid addition in the applicate? I think the outlay would pay off.
 
I can see this as being useful to the Wiim amp as it has proper amplification. The streamers pointless as they do not and it’s not going to have any idea of what the volume is on the amp side. Loudness is for amplifiers not streamers. The RME dac as it as it’s also a high quality digital preamp and headphone amplifier where this is suitable. The Wiim is non of these things. Do people actually seriously use the Wiim direct to power amps?
 
And it's far less practical and far less easy to do (and in my view even less useful) than most people think it is. Some reasons have already been named in the other request thread.

To add just one: Unless the correction knows how loud the sound is at your listening position (depending e.g. on speaker efficiency, listening distance and room layout) any such equalization (no matter how it's done) is just a rough estimation, anyway.
I don't see how this isn't possible on the wiim amp. Sure it's kinda pointless in the wiim mini, pro and pro plus, but with the wiim amp, the amp is the only device between the music and the speakers, so a loudness feature becomes more interesting.

It cannot be hard to implement effectively with modern equipment, one my older amplifiers is a 1972 sherwood s7200 and it has a loudness control that works just fine at low volumes, and correctly modifies the sound less as the volume increases, all without the benefit of a DSP or processor.

Some Yamaha amps even have a variable loudness control with different curves depending on the users need.

Many users of the wiim amp are connecting it to small bookshelves, a loudness feature makes sense in this scenario.
 
It's a simple question, but can you use PEQ to create a curve that is equal to loudness?
 
CrystalGipsy suggests above that use the Wiim directly connected to amp is not common.
Maybe it's a pity...
WiimM Pro+ has both Volume Control and EQ.
So if one of the EQ pre-sets was a decent Loudness (curves properly synchronized with the volume level), the SQ of the quietly plaing even average amp (or power amp) could be significantly improved.

It's worth doing such a test - I highly encourage
 
Forgive me for another elementary question.

My Yamaha AVR has the ability to auto-adjust bass and treble depending on the volume (Ypao volume). However, I don't think this feature is working properly. I think that's probably because this feature doesn't take hearing distance (or room space) into account.

If the loudness function works automatically, wouldn't it be difficult to make adjustments that are comfortable for everyone?

[edit]
If I can set a reference volume when the room correction, it may work properly...? 🤔
 
Last edited:
Forgive me for another elementary question.

My Yamaha AVR has the ability to auto-adjust bass and treble depending on the volume (Ypao volume). However, I don't think this feature is working properly. I think that's probably because this feature doesn't take hearing distance (or room space) into account.

If the loudness function works automatically, wouldn't it be difficult to make adjustments that are comfortable for everyone?

[edit]
If I can set a reference volume when the room correction, it may work properly...? 🤔
I like the legacy Yamaha with variable loudness control.
 
If one thinks a low power device can do complete Fletcher-Munson corrections does not know how to read dB graphs and has no idea about low frequency gain limitations.
 
I don't see how this isn't possible on the wiim amp. Sure it's kinda pointless in the wiim mini, pro and pro plus, but with the wiim amp, the amp is the only device between the music and the speakers, so a loudness feature becomes more interesting.

It cannot be hard to implement effectively with modern equipment, one my older amplifiers is a 1972 sherwood s7200 and it has a loudness control that works just fine at low volumes, and correctly modifies the sound less as the volume increases, all without the benefit of a DSP or processor.

Some Yamaha amps even have a variable loudness control with different curves depending on the users need.

Many users of the wiim amp are connecting it to small bookshelves, a loudness feature makes sense in this scenario.
I didn't say it's impossible, as it has been done (kind of) for decades, even with analog technology. If it has been done successfully mainly depends on your expectations.

Some people (not here in this forum, of course) seem to believe that implementing equal-loudness contour was somehow necessary to overcome defects of human hearing. This is simply not the case. These curves represent (on average) a characteristic of human hearing, not a defect.

If you listen to a real concert at its natural level, this is the real thing. There's nothing to compensate. Even if, technically speaking, a certain SPL form a double base will not sound exactly as loud as the same SPL from a violin, this is how it is. This is how music sounds to us human beings. If somebody recorded this concert for you (mics right above your head) and you play back that recording at home at exactly the same SPL, then again there's nothing to compensate for (except room influences, but this is a different topic). I hope we are in agreement so far.

The "problems" only start, when for practical reasons (like neighbours, partners or cats) you cannot play back the concert at the original level, but more quietly. If the violin was originally playing say a 1 kHz note at 60 dB (equalling a loudness of 60 phon) and the double bass a 100 Hz note at 60 dB (equalling ~42 phone), but now the recorded violin plays at 40 dB (loudness of 40 phon), then the double bass will play its tone at 40 dB as well, but this leads to a loudness of just ~17 phon. So, the difference in perceived loudness is 20 phone for the violin, but ~25 phone for the double bass. This difference is what loudness or contour tries to correct for. I hope we still agree on that. It's just a slightly cocky way of saying that you will hear less bass as the volume is turned down. ;)

Here comes our amplifier (of pre-amplifier, it really doesn't matter that much) and applies a matching contour function. As part of that correction it will lift the bass response at 100 Hz by 5 dB (and a correction following ISO 226 for all other frequencies, of course). Job done? No. Different playback levels will demand different levels of correction. The lower the playback level, the higher the required amount of correction for highs and lows. So, if you listen to the violin e.g. at 20 dB SPL, the amount of required correction will vastly differ from the 40 dB SPL example.

Trouble is, the amplifier (not even the WiiM Amp with everything in one box) really knows, what the actual SPL will be at your eardrums. It does know the selected volume level. It could even sense (at least in theory) the voltage at the speaker outputs. But it doesn't know the sensitivity of your speakers, nor your individual listening distance. Both factors combined can easily mean a 20 dB difference in SPL with the same volume setting. Bummer, a 20 dB difference in SPL will require a totally different amount of loudness compensation.

Using a microphone with absolute calibration, this problem could be mitigated. Different levels of different sources could introduce more variables. In addition, it is not possible or even desirable to fully compensate at very low levels, as @adias has pointed out.

What can be achieved is just an approximation. It might well make the illusion created by our hifi gear more pleasant and more enjoyable. It's just not really providing a higher fidelity. Nothing wrong with such a feature from my point of view, als long as I can enable and disable it any time.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top