Optimizing my Wiim Ultra, sub, turntable

[afficianado]

I currently have:

• A Wiim Ultra streamer - with sub out cabled up
• A stereo amp - one set of speakers, no sub out, no preamp out
• Passive bookshelf speakers
• Active sub that supports both single and L/R line-level inputs
• Turntable - phono level out, MM cartridge

So... I have been routing everything through the Wiim, which outputs to the sub and line outs going to the amp and thence to the speakers. I set volume on the sub and amp and leave them, controlling volume from the Wiim. This does work nicely, and is what I have been doing.

Until recently when my immature inner audiophile started finding his way out, and I decided to play with using a fixed 100% volume from the Wiim. Surprising to me, it does in fact sound better. But - there is always a but isn't there - this does eliminate simple volume control, as I now have to adjust the amp and sub separately with the Wiim at fixed volume.

To complicate matters further, I routed the turntable through the amp's phono inputs rather than the Wiim. Wouldn't you know I also prefer that. I have read people saying the Wiim phono stage is not a strength, and that is what I found in comparison to the amp (NAD C 316BEE). My guess would be it probably has to do with A->D->A conversion and of course then I lose the sub and bass management because I am bypassing the Wiim.

All this to say what I think I want to do here is get the sub out somewhere in the chain after the Wiim. Though yeah, I'd be missing out on bass management. Hmmm... I think I see just a couple of sensible options.
1: put things back the way they were and tell my inner audiophile to shut up and crawl back inside, it sounds good enough and volume control is simple
2: get a new amp with inputs for the Wiim running fixed volume, a pure analog phono stage and enough outs for speakers and sub, and maybe bass management too. This is probably optimal. But I don't think it will be cheap, particularly with tariffs happening. And I may also need a new wife, she already thinks I have spent enough for this small office/man-cave setup. (Just kidding I do not want a new wife.)

Have I got this about right or am I missing another way to use fixed output from the Wiim and still have usable sub support for the turntable, and bass management? I am probably overthinking this. Are any of the Wiim family's phono stages an improvement over the one in the Ultra - I suspect they all do ADA conversion? Now that I have heard a better phone stage it's harder to go back.

Thanks for any advice or suggestions.

 

[MattyC]

I currently have:

• A Wiim Ultra streamer - with sub out cabled up
• A stereo amp - one set of speakers, no sub out, no preamp out
• Passive bookshelf speakers
• Active sub that supports both single and L/R line-level inputs
• Turntable - phono level out, MM cartridge

So... I have been routing everything through the Wiim, which outputs to the sub and line outs going to the amp and thence to the speakers. I set volume on the sub and amp and leave them, controlling volume from the Wiim. This does work nicely, and is what I have been doing.

Until recently when my immature inner audiophile started finding his way out, and I decided to play with using a fixed 100% volume from the Wiim. Surprising to me, it does in fact sound better. But - there is always a but isn't there - this does eliminate simple volume control, as I now have to adjust the amp and sub separately with the Wiim at fixed volume.

To complicate matters further, I routed the turntable through the amp's phono inputs rather than the Wiim. Wouldn't you know I also prefer that. I have read people saying the Wiim phono stage is not a strength, and that is what I found in comparison to the amp (NAD C 316BEE). My guess would be it probably has to do with A->D->A conversion and of course then I lose the sub and bass management because I am bypassing the Wiim.

All this to say what I think I want to do here is get the sub out somewhere in the chain after the Wiim. Though yeah, I'd be missing out on bass management. Hmmm... I think I see just a couple of sensible options.
1: put things back the way they were and tell my inner audiophile to shut up and crawl back inside, it sounds good enough and volume control is simple
2: get a new amp with inputs for the Wiim running fixed volume, a pure analog phono stage and enough outs for speakers and sub, and maybe bass management too. This is probably optimal. But I don't think it will be cheap, particularly with tariffs happening. And I may also need a new wife, she already thinks I have spent enough for this small office/man-cave setup. (Just kidding I do not want a new wife.)

Have I got this about right or am I missing another way to use fixed output from the Wiim and still have usable sub support for the turntable, and bass management? I am probably overthinking this. Are any of the Wiim family's phono stages an improvement over the one in the Ultra - I suspect they all do ADA conversion? Now that I have heard a better phone stage it's harder to go back.

Thanks for any advice or suggestions.

What are the outputs on your active sub?

 

[MattyC]

Have you tried Wiim Sub Amp Speakers in that order?

 

[Burnside]

Maybe try a better phono pre-amp into the Ultra?

 

[d00]

Maybe try a better phono pre-amp into the Ultra?

Doesn't the WiiM Ultra convert everything into digital sound and release everything equally? Does it make sense to use an external phono pre-amp connected to the WiiM Ultra? Does it give something?

 

[dominikz]

1: put things back the way they were and tell my inner audiophile to shut up and crawl back inside, it sounds good enough and volume control is simple

This would get my vote - ease of use is IMHO quite important and can be a big factor in how much music you end up listening.

Also note that so many factors (not just sound quality) affect how we perceive sound that it is wise to remain a little bit skeptical of even your own listening impressions. Even world-class music producers sometimes perceive improvement in audio while turning some knob, just to realize a few seconds later that the knob they were turning was completely out of the signal flow - many such stories can be found on the Web; and I've definitely had similar experiences myself (more than once ).
Anyway, just my 2 cents!

In any case I hope you find a solution you enjoy!

 

[Burnside]

Doesn't the WiiM Ultra convert everything into digital sound and release everything equally? Does it make sense to use an external phono pre-amp connected to the WiiM Ultra? Does it give something?

The Ultra will indeed convert all analog input to digital - other than taking a perhaps outdated “purist” view, why is that necessarily a bad thing? I was merely suggesting that an external pre-amp might be better than the Ultra’s pre-amp stage.

 

[Pragmatist]

The Ultra will indeed convert all analog input to digital - other than taking a perhaps outdated “purist” view, why is that necessarily a bad thing? I was merely suggesting that an external pre-amp might be better than the Ultra’s pre-amp stage.

You're so right. But can you imagine what this realization finally did with me?

 

[Burnside]

You're so right. But can you imagine what this realization finally did with me?

You didn’t buy a Linn Selekt, did you?

 

[Pragmatist]

You didn’t buy a Linn Selekt, did you?

No, the phono of my new toy seems to be good enough

 

[Valentino]

Doesn't the WiiM Ultra convert everything into digital sound and release everything equally? Does it make sense to use an external phono pre-amp connected to the WiiM Ultra? Does it give something?

Yes, it gives something. You should not worry to much about the ADA conversion in itself, especially the DA which is about as good as such things get. The Ultra analog front end, both line and especially phono, are not as good as it's outputs.

I have a pretty good turntable and first I used the excellent Cambridge Alva Duo phono amp into the Ultra line input. I was quite pleased with it, and it made better music than the Ultra phono input.
Now I've changed to a MiniDSP ADept phono amp ADC that is plugged into the Ultra Optical in. The ADept can also be used for recording needle drops and it has a state of the art balanced analog input as well. It's ADC data is about as good as such get, on par with the Ultra's analog output.

 

[afficianado]

I've tried to keep the related posts together with my responses.

What are the outputs on your active sub?

Have you tried Wiim Sub Amp Speakers in that order?

If the active sub had outs, I would. Alas, it does not. That's what I get for going with a less expensive, albeit decent sounding, sub.

Maybe try a better phono pre-amp into the Ultra?

Doesn't the WiiM Ultra convert everything into digital sound and release everything equally? Does it make sense to use an external phono pre-amp connected to the WiiM Ultra? Does it give something?

The Ultra will indeed convert all analog input to digital - other than taking a perhaps outdated “purist” view, why is that necessarily a bad thing? I was merely suggesting that an external pre-amp might be better than the Ultra’s pre-amp stage.

You're so right. But can you imagine what this realization finally did with me?

You didn’t buy a Linn Selekt, did you?

No, the phono of my new toy seems to be good enough ""

That Selekt costs more than my entire setup, lol. I am leaning toward the A>D conversion being the weak link, though. Which brings us to...

Yes, it gives something. You should not worry to much about the ADA conversion in itself, especially the DA which is about as good as such things get. The Ultra analog front end, both line and especially phono, are not as good as it's outputs.

I have a pretty good turntable and first I used the excellent Cambridge Alva Duo phono amp into the Ultra line input. I was quite pleased with it, and it made better music than the Ultra phono input.
Now I've changed to a MiniDSP ADept phono amp ADC that is plugged into the Ultra Optical in. The ADept can also be used for recording needle drops and it has a state of the art balanced analog input as well. It's ADC data is about as good as such get, on par with the Ultra's analog output.

This is very much in line with what I have been thinking. Hmm... I think this might be worth a shot, and cheaper than a suitable new amp. Thanks for the specific product mentions, too.

For what it's worth my turntable is a Technics SL-1700 (not m2) and I am the original owner from 1977-ish. I just put a new headshell with an AT VM95ML on it, cleaned it up and aligned everything and it seems to be working great for being almost 50 years old. Like my even older self, it cleans up pretty well.

This would get my vote - ease of use is IMHO quite important and can be a big factor in how much music you end up listening.

Also note that so many factors (not just sound quality) affect how we perceive sound that it is wise to remain a little bit skeptical of even your own listening impressions. Even world-class music producers sometimes perceive improvement in audio while turning some knob, just to realize a few seconds later that the knob they were turning was completely out of the signal flow - many such stories can be found on the Web; and I've definitely had similar experiences myself (more than once ).
Anyway, just my 2 cents!

In any case I hope you find a solution you enjoy!

Yes I have had the same thoughts and experience. Maybe it is mostly in my head. Still, I may give the outboard preamp a shot. Thanks for reminding me about this, though.