Pre-gain on linked devices.

[hgo58]

I have a Pro Plus with attached tape recorder on line in and an Ultra with the main speakers connected on optical output.

I am linking those in a group to play the tape on the speakers.

When changing the pre-gain on the line input on the master device (Pro Plus), it was expected that it was still working when playing on linked device (Ultra).

Changing line input pre-gain on the master do however have no impact and only pre-gain on "WiFi" on the Ultra changes input volume.

Is that would should be expected? I would think that the pre-gain should work before anything else.

 

[Wiimer]

I have a Pro Plus with attached tape recorder on line in and an Ultra with the main speakers connected on optical output.

I am linking those in a group to play the tape on the speakers.

When changing the pre-gain on the line input on the master device (Pro Plus), it was expected that it was still working when playing on linked device (Ultra).

Changing line input pre-gain on the master do however have no impact and only pre-gain on "WiFi" on the Ultra changes input volume.

Is that would should be expected? I would think that the pre-gain should work before anything else.

Pre-gain is a device-specific setting, so that seems like an expected result.

 

[hgo58]

Pre-gain is a device-specific setting, so that seems like an expected result.

Ok. So even if I have different pre-gains on the inputs on the Pro Plus it doesn't matter, as my speakers are connected to the Ultra. So no use for the pre-gain on the actual inputs?

It is not logical to me but that is how it is for now.

Why is it not applied before the LinkPlay connection?

And what is the purpose of pre-gain on "WiFi"? The "WiFi" is a multitude of different inputs from different sources.

 

[Burnside]

Ok. So even if I have different pre-gains on the inputs on the Pro Plus it doesn't matter, as my speakers are connected to the Ultra. So no use for the pre-gain on the actual inputs?

There’s almost some sort of logic to it as you’d normally use pre-gain to balance the output volume across all the inputs on a device, so while you apply it to an input it’s to satisfy an output requirement if you follow me.

It is not logical to me but that is how it is for now.

Why is it not applied before the LinkPlay connection?

Because it’s device specific - what it’s doing in your setup is balancing the output volume of the pro plus across its inputs, and why applying it to the Ultra’s wi-fi input makes sense in that context.

And what is the purpose of pre-gain on "WiFi"? The "WiFi" is a multitude of different inputs from different sources.

I think we’ve gone over this before that that label should be “network” or such, otherwise you’d end up with pre-gain, EQ settings etc for each individual service whether that be a streaming service, home music share, radio etc

 

[Wiimer]

Ok. So even if I have different pre-gains on the inputs on the Pro Plus it doesn't matter, as my speakers are connected to the Ultra. So no use for the pre-gain on the actual inputs?

It is not logical to me but that is how it is for now.

Why is it not applied before the LinkPlay connection?

If the pre-gain of the parent device of a group affects the child devices, then volume limit should work the same way, but if it does, tricky for me

And what is the purpose of pre-gain on "WiFi"? The "WiFi" is a multitude of different inputs from different sources.

I understand that this is not ideal.

 

[hgo58]

There’s almost some sort of logic to it as you’d normally use pre-gain to balance the output volume across all the inputs on a device, so while you apply it to an input it’s to satisfy an output requirement if you follow me.

I would in this case also see the link as an output. That is where I don't understand the logic and this is how I wanted to use it.

Because it’s device specific - what it’s doing in your setup is balancing the output volume of the pro plus across its inputs, and why applying it to the Ultra’s wi-fi input makes sense in that context.

Yes. The pre-gain on the master inputs should be applied to its output that is the WiFi input of the linked devices.

 

[hgo58]

If the pre-gain of the parent device of a group affects the child devices, then volume limit should work the same way, but if it does, tricky for me

Even with fixed or limit volume the pre-gain should work for all outputs, as it is meant to balance input volume to get same level on output.

 

[Mr Ee]

For me, the parent of a group isn't outputting its processed signal to the children, it's just redistributing the source.
What if I want room correction on one device and bit perfect on another (assuming at most a 48khz source )
What actions that the parent can perform should and should not be applied before the distribution?
I doubt we'll get ever get a common agreement, and it'd surely be too onerous for wiim to allow some processing to be performed pre- distribution and some post, especially with low latency groups and persistent groups where there's not necessarily the concept of a parent.

Let each device do whatever it likes with an unadulterated source!

 

[Wiimer]

Yes. The pre-gain on the master inputs should be applied to its output that is the WiFi input of the linked devices.

This is my opinion, I think that the MRM master device is not outputting the audio signal to the slave devices, but distributing it.

 

[hgo58]

For me, the parent of a group isn't outputting its processed signal to the children, it's just redistributing the source.
What if I want room correction on one device and bit perfect on another (assuming at most a 48khz source )
What actions that the parent can perform should and should not be applied before the distribution?
I doubt we'll get ever get a common agreement, and it'd surely be too onerous for wiim to allow some processing to be performed pre- distribution and some post, especially with low latency groups and persistent groups where there's not necessarily the concept of a parent.

Let each device do whatever it likes with an unadulterated source!

It is call "pre" gain. So I would have expected it to be applied before anything else. Directly on the input.

Agree that EQ of any form and output volume control is on each device.

 

[Burnside]

This is my opinion, I think that the MRM master device is not outputting the audio signal to the slave devices, but distributing it.

Agreed. Redistribution isn’t output in the same sense as analogue, optical etc. To the other devices in a group, it’s as if they’re getting their input over “WiFi” from the same source as the main device. Now, if you were using DLNA cast as output, for example, I might expect the main device’s pre gain to impact that - but I’d need to think about that a bit more

 

[hgo58]

Agreed. Redistribution isn’t output in the same sense as analogue, optical etc. To the other devices in a group, it’s as if they’re getting their input over “WiFi” from the same source as the main device. Now, if you were using DLNA cast as output, for example, I might expect the main device’s pre gain to impact that - but I’d need to think about that a bit more

So I would see it like all linked devices shares the inputs of the main device and the pre-gain on the main device inputs should be applied for all.

If I have adjusted the inputs on a device to have same level, why should I then have to adjust that again on the WiFi input on each linked device? And for each time I change the input.

This is of course a minor issue and inconvenience but I would still like it to be more logical in its behaviour.

 

[hgo58]

If the pre-gain of the parent device of a group affects the child devices, then volume limit should work the same way, but if it does, tricky for me

The volume limits shall work for the local device only, as it is the device that you select the output on.

The pre-gain shall work on the inputs on the device independent of the local output and before the LinkPlay distribution. That is why it's called "pre". Else it could just as well be the per source volume control.

 

[d6jg]

If you were to input your Tape source the way I do Vinyl the pre-gain would apply to all outputs.

I do it by sending the source audio via a USB ADC to a Pi and then output that as a playable radio url. In my case the url is played via LMS but without that you’d just use Open Network Stream on a WiiM group.

 

[Burnside]

The volume limits shall work for the local device only, as it is the device that you select the output on.

The pre-gain shall work on the inputs on the device independent of the local output and before the LinkPlay distribution. That is why it's called "pre". Else it could just as well be the per source volume control.

I suggest you submit a feature request ticket asking that that be an option as I can see a case for pre gain only impacting the device on which it’s set, and being independent of redistribution to other devices

 

[hgo58]

I suggest you submit a feature request ticket asking that that be an option as I can see a case for pre gain only impacting the device on which it’s set, and being independent of redistribution to other devices

Yes. I have raised a ticket.
What be the use case that you see?

 

[Burnside]

Let’s assume I have pre-gain set on my first device for my turntable, WiFi and optical at A, B and C so that the resulting volume output is level across all three sources while playing from that device. Similarly, the second device has say D and E set as pre gain for its WiFi and line input respectively so that again listening on that device is volume levelled across its inputs. If you wanted the turntable pre gain of A on the first device to impact the second device when grouped, the latter’s WiFi input would now have a pre-gain of A+D, making WiFi playback on that second device no longer balanced with its line input.

Or to put it another way, say the first device in the first room had a +10 for the turntable input pre-gain, and a -2 for the WiFi so their playback volume is balanced on the system they’re connected to. And say the second device in the second room had pre-gains of 0 for WiFi and -3 for its line-in to achieve balance there on its connected setup. If we were to independently play the same track from Qobuz to each device, those streams would be volume balanced with their respective other inputs in each room. If we were to group the devices, why would we want those balances to change? If we were to apply the pre-gain of the input on the first system to the distributed audio, wouldn’t the balance on the target device be lost even though its still playing the same track?

It’s getting late here and I’m starting to confuse myself now. I may have to re-think this in the morning

 

[Wiimer]

If you wanted the turntable pre gain of A on the first device to impact the second device when grouped, the latter’s WiFi input would now have a pre-gain of A+D, making WiFi playback on that second device no longer balanced with its line input.

To be honest I am confused from the start, but I don't think it can be "A+D" because the pregain of the master does not affect the slaves. My answer is "D"
...I am not confident.

 

[Mr Ee]

To be honest I am confused from the start, but I don't think it can be "A+D" because the pregain of the master does not affect the slaves. My answer is "D"
...I am not confident.

Not right now, correct. But with the proposal that the pre gain is applied before distribution then it'd be a+d.
If this were to be implemented it ought to be optional.

 

[Wiimer]

Not right now, correct. But with the proposal that the pre gain is applied before distribution then it'd be a+d.
If this were to be implemented it ought to be optional.

Understood, thank you.
Either an auto-translation error or my misinterpretation.

@Burnside ,
Please forget about me