What products you'd like to see WiiM produce?

[Blundie]

Would this be possible? Wiim app for Synology NAS? Have it work with audio station. Thanks.

Found that Synology universal search is not supported. It is fixed by using an alternative media server. For example minimupnp or LMS which I'm both trying out. Then the search function in WHA shows my digital albums on my Synology.

I'm also testing mconnect lite as a player and using wiim only as endpoint. Seems decent enough but what I really want is mixing streaming and nas, preferably with Spotify's discovery algos.

(And no, I don't have thousands of albums so roon seem quite expensive for what it does for me compared to say LMS).

 

[PaulZH]

I would also like to see on the output side:
- USB (even multi-channel capable)
- HDMI (multi-channel).

 

[KolfMAKER]

Wireless speakers connected to TV, without delay between sound and video

Here's what I like to do. I want to be able to build a wireless stereo speakers set (preferably with LinkPlay wireless modules), that can be connected to a TV-set, but without having a delay between the audio and the video. This is the idea:



So far, I have not been able to make it work, because there is a delay in which the audio comes through a bit later than the video. E.g. you can see someone say hello, but hearing it happens a second later. The delay comes from the buffering of audio data for sync playing on the L and R of the stereo set. While grouped with multi-room playback, the input audio data will be sent to the WiFi module, the WiFi module will then buffer the input and then send it to the slave devices. And then will try to send the audio data out to the baseboard at the same time. Like this:



What is needed, example what works
That the audio signal needs processing time, which causes the delay, is of course logical. So there needs to be a way to delay the video signal to it will be synchronized with the timing of the audio signal.
So far I have seen only one way in which it works: Apple TV 4K (and higher) combined with AirPlay compatible speakers. The Apple TV handles the synchronization between audio and video, and controls a perfect synchronization between audio & video: no delay. This works with everything one watches on the AppleTV box, but the thing missing is that Apple TV does not handle the TV-signal that I get from my TV & Internet provider.
By the way, there are many TV-sets that have AirPlay support, but only in such way that one can send content from an iPhone/iPad to the TV. And not the other way around; sending audio to wireless AirPlay speakers is not supported.

Proposal to WiiM
There is a wireless protocol/standard already in the market that perfectly handles this issue: WISA. To make this work, WISA is needed on the television side, and also on the wireless speaker side. Concerning televisions, there is a large number of TV manufacturers and models that are WISA compatible, available in the market today. So this side has been covered.
On the speaker side we need WiFi receiver boards that have WISA added. So my question to WiiM / LinkPlay is:

Can you build a DIY board based on your LinkPlay chipsets, that have added WISA support?

Of course this will have a different /added pricing. But that is acceptable. I would prefer to be able to use WISA as an add-on to the basic LinkPlay product.

 

[PaulZH]

Wireless speakers connected to TV, without delay between sound and video

Here's what I like to do. I want to be able to build a wireless stereo speakers set (preferably with LinkPlay wireless modules), that can be connected to a TV-set, but without having a delay between the audio and the video. This is the idea:


View attachment 689
So far, I have not been able to make it work, because there is a delay in which the audio comes through a bit later than the video. E.g. you can see someone say hello, but hearing it happens a second later. The delay comes from the buffering of audio data for sync playing on the L and R of the stereo set. While grouped with multi-room playback, the input audio data will be sent to the WiFi module, the WiFi module will then buffer the input and then send it to the slave devices. And then will try to send the audio data out to the baseboard at the same time. Like this:

View attachment 690

What is needed, example what works
That the audio signal needs processing time, which causes the delay, is of course logical. So there needs to be a way to delay the video signal to it will be synchronized with the timing of the audio signal.
So far I have seen only one way in which it works: Apple TV 4K (and higher) combined with AirPlay compatible speakers. The Apple TV handles the synchronization between audio and video, and controls a perfect synchronization between audio & video: no delay. This works with everything one watches on the AppleTV box, but the thing missing is that Apple TV does not handle the TV-signal that I get from my TV & Internet provider.
By the way, there are many TV-sets that have AirPlay support, but only in such way that one can send content from an iPhone/iPad to the TV. And not the other way around; sending audio to wireless AirPlay speakers is not supported.

Proposal to WiiM
There is a wireless protocol/standard already in the market that perfectly handles this issue: WISA. To make this work, WISA is needed on the television side, and also on the wireless speaker side. Concerning televisions, there is a large number of TV manufacturers and models that are WISA compatible, available in the market today. So this side has been covered.
On the speaker side we need WiFi receiver boards that have WISA added. So my question to WiiM / LinkPlay is:

Can you build a DIY board based on your LinkPlay chipsets, that have added WISA support?

Of course this will have a different /added pricing. But that is acceptable. I would prefer to be able to use WISA as an add-on to the basic LinkPlay product.

yes I concur, having a WISA add-on would be great and find use in more scenario's.

 

[donjulien]

Wiim ultra with usb out along with coax and spdif. Usb allow to get into 768k pcm as well as mqa 384khz that typical dac support. Usb out will be end game for me.

Not willing to leave our beautiful Woo Audio WA7 behind. But it's only USB. Please!

 

[WIlliAmNPC]

Make a dedicated USB-OUTPUT streamer.

USB-in would also be nice to play music from an external hard drive. But, I'd probably settle with the USB-out alone.
I would guess that the next BlueSound Node will have both USB-in and USB-out. I'll buy from whoever can get this out first.
(NOTE) The current node has one USB socket to be used as either a USB-in or a USB-out (not both) and the USB-out implementation only came by way of a software update after the release of the current model. So it kind-of felt like an oversight. The WiiM pro is more than satasfactory for my purposes at this time however a proper USB-out streamer with full functionality is what I really want.

 

[joffy1780]

Make a dedicated USB-OUTPUT streamer.

USB-in would also be nice to play music from an external hard drive. But, I'd probably settle with the USB-out alone.
I would guess that the next BlueSound Node will have both USB-in and USB-out. I'll buy from whoever can get this out first.
(NOTE) The current node has one USB socket to be used as either a USB-in or a USB-out (not both) and the USB-out implementation only came by way of a software update after the release of the current model. So it kind-of felt like an oversight. The WiiM pro is more than satasfactory for my purposes at this time however a proper USB-out streamer with full functionality is what I really want.

With the lack of content available in anything higher than 24/192, what would be the point?

 

[WIlliAmNPC]

With the lack of content available in anything higher than 24/192, what would be the point?

Some prefer USB over COAX as a digital source for a variety for technical reasons. More and more DACs are optimized for USB for these same reasons.

 

[Mike in NY]

With the lack of content available in anything higher than 24/192, what would be the point?

There is downloadable content available in DXD, and DSD from various services, not everything is only streamed by subscription from the cloud. Some folks purchase downloads of certain albums at sample rates greater than 192kHz from the likes of NativeDSD.com, or HighDefTapeTransfers.ca, ProStudioMasters.com and HDTracks, and those files reside on their local server.

Additionally, both DVD-Audio and SACD physical media can be ripped to files that play at sample rates higher than 192kHz.

 

[joffy1780]

There is downloadable content available in DXD, and DSD from various services, not everything is only streamed by subscription from the cloud. Some folks purchase downloads of certain albums at sample rates greater than 192kHz from the likes of NativeDSD.com, or HighDefTapeTransfers.ca, ProStudioMasters.com and HDTracks, and those files reside on their local server.

Additionally, both DVD-Audio and SACD physical media can be ripped to files that play at sample rates higher than 192kHz.

I realise this, but the market for that is/would be miniscule.
Also, I would likely bet the majority of people purchasing these files would likely turn their nose up at a streamer by Wiim.
I'm sure Wiim would have done their market research before releasing the Mini and Pro and realised such.

Some prefer USB over COAX as a digital source for a variety for technical reasons. More and more DACs are optimized for USB for these same reasons.

There aren't any 'technical reasons' to prefer USB, it is simply a preference, and no DACs are being 'optimised' for USB. There are a few USB only DACs, but these are aimed at desktop users connecting directly to a PC, where there is no need for a separate streamer.

 

[cc_rider]

I realise this, but the market for that is/would be miniscule.
Also, I would likely bet the majority of people purchasing these files would likely turn their nose up at a streamer by Wiim.
I'm sure Wiim would have done their market research before releasing the Mini and Pro and realised such.

Yep. Sonos' market share eclipses all of the "high end" streaming providers by far, and they "only" do 24/48.

 

[WIlliAmNPC]

There aren't any 'technical reasons' to prefer USB

The main reason that some people (mostly audiophiles who enjoy trivializing small details) prefer USB has to do with the timing of data (i.e. jitter). One difference between a USB and coax is the manner in which the data is clocked. With coax the data is clocked at the digital source and sent to the DAC at which point the DAC will buffer and perform various tricks to keep the time frequency of the audio in check. With a USB the DAC pulls the data from the source as-is and the DAC clocks the data itself. This way, the DAC doesn't have to perform gymnastics to keep the timing of the data in check. You might think this doesn't make a whole lot of difference (and in a lot of ways it won't for most people (especially as source clocks become better and better even in entry level gear)) however there is a small subset of people interested in the marginal improvements of reduced jitter and as such invest in such things as better sources (with better clocks), DDCs, digital filters and other items all dedicated to reducing jitter. Point is, there are technical differences between USB and coax. You might not subjectively prefer one over the other however others do.

 

[joffy1780]

The main reason that some people (mostly audiophiles who enjoy trivializing small details) prefer USB has to do with the timing of data (i.e. jitter). One difference between a USB and coax is the manner in which the data is clocked. With coax the data is clocked at the digital source and sent to the DAC at which point the DAC will buffer and perform various tricks to keep the time frequency of the audio in check. With a USB the DAC pulls the data from the source as-is and the DAC clocks the data itself. This way, the DAC doesn't have to perform gymnastics to keep the timing of the data in check. You might think this doesn't make a whole lot of difference (and in a lot of ways it won't for most people (especially as source clocks become better and better even in entry level gear)) however there is a small subset of people interested in the marginal improvements of reduced jitter and as such invest in such things as better sources (with better clocks), DDCs, digital filters and other items all dedicated to reducing jitter. Point is, there are technical differences between USB and coax. You might not subjectively prefer one over the other however others do.

This is what I mean by tiny market.
None of this is really an issue anymore with modern DACs, and none of it will be audible, and I don't mean for most people, I mean it will not be audible to anybody.
People who believe they can hear differences like this are catered to by boutique Hifi companies (snake oil salesman) and I really don't think that is the market Wiim are (or should be) catering to.

 

[Mike in NY]

I realise this, but the market for that is/would be miniscule.

Probably not minuscule with that many services still selling those downloads. Certainly things are strongly headed away from downloads and towards "rental" streaming for many years now, but that doesn't mean there is a lack of available content as you had originally said, there are many hundreds if not thousands of DXD and DSD albums available, especially in the classical music genre. I personally have ripped hundreds of my SACDs to DSD files playable over my home LAN, or even on a portable device. Admittedly it is a niche though, and always has been going back to the days of physical media as king, SACD and DVD-Audio never had anything close to the market share that CD did.

Also, I would likely bet the majority of people purchasing these files would likely turn their nose up at a streamer by Wiim.

Probably true, and maybe I'm an example of that, the WiiM Pro is not in my main system, I use it in a bedroom system. I don't really need ultimate high sample rate compatibility there, though the ability to transcode it on-the-fly to 24/88.2 or 24/176.4 would still be of value to me, but I could also likely set that up to happen on the JRiver server side, instead of rely on the WiiM as renderer to do it.

I'm sure Wiim would have done their market research before releasing the Mini and Pro and realised such.

Perhaps they did, and as such I don't complain at the price point, maybe that kind of functionality should be reserved for a more upmarket WiiM offering, eg. a Signature version or something like that.

However everyone is allowed to ask for what they'd like, and @WIlliAmNPC just asked for USB, not necessarily for the purpose of high sample rate support, and I agree with him that some DACs have a better USB implementation than SPDIF.

 

[Mike in NY]

This is what I mean by tiny market.
None of this is really an issue anymore with modern DACs, and none of it will be audible, and I don't mean for most people, I mean it will not be audible to anybody.
People who believe they can hear differences like this are catered to by boutique Hifi companies (snake oil salesman) and I really don't think that is the market Wiim are (or should be) catering to.

Despite what you may think, SPDIF is not perfect, and is likely harder/more costly to properly implement than USB is with easy off the shelf input boards by the likes of XMOS and Amenaro.

I'll leave it at that as I see you are fiercely taking this in the "bits are bits" and "no one can ever hear any difference direction", painting in rather one size fits all broad strokes there, which is a better fit for ASR-type groupthink than it is in this thread where someone merely proposed the inclusion of USB connectivity, which is not outrageous at all.

 

[Mike in NY]

People who believe they can hear differences like this are catered to by boutique Hifi companies (snake oil salesman) and I really don't think that is the market Wiim are (or should be) catering to.

This entire thread is WiiM themselves as thread starter conducting market research, asking their current customers what they'd like to see in the future. The thread has absolutely nothing to do with your idea of what constitutes a viable market size, or the supposed efficacy (or lack thereof) of any given proposed product or feature. WiiM themselves will decide what market segments to pursue or decline to pursue.

 

[joffy1780]

So Wiim ask what other products people would like to see them produce and people are suggesting.......streamers.
They already produce those

Regarding bits are bits etc., a fool and his money is the old saying isn't? You do what makes you happy.

 

[Mike in NY]

Regarding bits are bits etc., a fool and his money is the old saying isn't?

Lucky for you I guess, no one is seeking your expert advice on how to spend (or not spend) their money.

So Wiim ask what other products people would like to see them produce and people are suggesting.......streamers.
They already produce those

You inserted the word "other" there in attempting to move the goal posts, it's not actually a part of the chosen thread title, you made that up, and there have been many previous posts in this very same thread amounting to suggestions of streamer products with a variation on the current feature set.

Why the mere suggestion of a USB port then setoff your parroting claims of snake oil as well as overly confident and incorrect assertions of minuscule market sizes, and "no content available" I'm not entirely sure, but by your logic WiiM could just use MP3 and offer Spotify only and call it a day then I guess.

 

[WIlliAmNPC]

Network streaming is an emerging industry and WiiM has emerged as a very strong contender among Bluesound, Sonos, Play-fi and others. It's definitely a footrace at this stage of the game. Something like a dedicated USB streamer or at very least the implementation of USB into the next Pro generation is definitely worth considering. I personally believe it will be a digital audio standard in the future.

 

[joffy1780]

Lucky for you I guess, no one is seeking your expert advice on how to spend (or not spend) their money.


You inserted the word "other" there in attempting to move the goal posts, it's not actually a part of the chosen thread title, you made that up, and there have been many previous posts in this very same thread amounting to suggestions of streamer products with a variation on the current feature set.

Why the mere suggestion of a USB port then setoff your parroting claims of snake oil as well as overly confident and incorrect assertions of minuscule market sizes, and "no content available" I'm not entirely sure, but by your logic WiiM could just use MP3 and offer Spotify only and call it a day then I guess.

When you say you will leave it that, you really can't can you?
I'm not trying to tell people how to spend their money, never said 'bits are bits', didn't say there was 'no content available' and am not saying that Wiim should offer only MP3 (who is moving the goalposts now?) ....but the fact is that jitter is basically a solved problem and the market for content with sampling rates above 192k is miniscule, just because you have mentioned a few sites where you can download albums doesn't mean it is not a miniscule market. It is a niche, within a niche, within a niche.
I actually did read the title as 'other' products, I must admit, so that was my error and I was referring to the other people (plural) as well when I bemoaned the fact they were suggesting streamers.
Anyway, when accusing people of moving goalposts, probably best not to do so yourself.