Wiim Ultra Connection to Integrated Amp

[seurat0109]

I have a Musical Fidelity A5 Integrated Amp (MFA5)(IA). I'd like to get a Wiim Ultra to use with it. My understanding is that the Ultra can be used with an IA but I'm not certain about the connections.

The MFA5 doesn't have any digital inputs (see attachment). It does have several analog inputs that accept 300 mV inputs so I'm thinking that I would just wire the Ultra line out (LO) (RCA) directly to one of those inputs. According to the documentation the Ultra's LO is rated at 2.1 V RMS (Maximum).

Therefore my confusion. It seems like this arrangement would result in two volume controls. Should I use the Home Theater connection, instead?

I would appreciate it if someone familiar with the line levels, etc. involved could advise.

Thanks,


Wayne

 

[jed1]

You can set the maximum line output level with WiiM Home App. For Pro and Pro Plus, it ranges from 200mV to 2V. You can try different levels and select what's appropriate to your integrated amplifier.

 

[Mr Ee]

It seems like this arrangement would result in two volume controls. Should I use the Home Theater connection, instead?

Welcome.
Yes, it allows for two volume controls.
The ultra's analog output can also be set from 200mv up to 2v (there are 5 choices).
Probably depends on how you want to control the volume when listening to music - how do you change volume atm? Does the amp have a remote?

You could set the ultra to 100% volume (or any volume, really) and use the amp like 'normal'. This would still allow you to use the ultra's volume control if you wanted to.
If you use the HT input then you will only be able to use the ultra's volume controls, and might need to set some options to limit the maximum volume it outputs.

fwiw, all my wiims are set to variable volume into my integrated amps so that the amp's volume controls the overall maximum and I can control volume from anywhere / everywhere, i.e. phone volume buttons, wiim app, wiim remote, amp remote, amp dial.

 

[seurat0109]

Thanks!

I wasn't aware that the output levels could be set.


Wayne

Welcome.
Yes, it allows for two volume controls.
The ultra's analog output can also be set from 200mv up to 2v (there are 5 choices).
Probably depends on how you want to control the volume when listening to music - how do you change volume atm? Does the amp have a remote?

You could set the ultra to 100% volume (or any volume, really) and use the amp like 'normal'. This would still allow you to use the ultra's volume control if you wanted to.
If you use the HT input then you will only be able to use the ultra's volume controls, and might need to set some options to limit the maximum volume it outputs.

fwiw, all my wiims are set to variable volume into my integrated amps so that the amp's volume controls the overall maximum and I can control volume from anywhere / everywhere, i.e. phone volume buttons, wiim app, wiim remote, amp remote, amp dial.

Thanks for the additional information.

Currently, I just use the A5 with its own remote and a CD player as a source. I'm interested in adding a streamer and I like the Ultra but the fact that it acts as a PreAmp complicates things. The other problem is that the A5 has only analog inputs. I was trying to avoid having two PreAmp sections in the same system.

I have read up on the HT option on the Musical Fidelity A5.5 Integrated (a later model) and they added an "AUX" option to the HT input. The information is, typically, not very clear, but it makes it sound like the HT option might not be a good idea. Again, I have to do some reading.

Your solution is probably what I will try - set the Ultra to variable and use the A5's remote to control the volume. I've downloaded the user manual for the Ultra and I will have to read up more. It seems like the more I "know" the more confusing it gets!

 

[narcoleptic-haze]

Keep in mind when using the FIXED (100%) volume, with EQ on, can affect the volume dynamically. Eg: I was using fixed 100% volume on Ultra and running into an integrated amp. But adjusting EQ upwards (particularly bass), causes more gain, but since the Ultra is already at 100% it actually acts like a ducking effect. I really noticed this on songs with a fast kick drum (EDM, Black Metal etc) - the output almost sounds as if there is a quick volume change after every kick beat.

So in order to take advantage of boosting the bass etc, I have to run the Ultra at below 100% to illuminate this issue. It absolutely makes sense, but I swear this is the only device I've ever owned where this has been an issue.

 

[harkpabst]

Keep in mind when using the FIXED (100%) volume, with EQ on, can affect the volume dynamically. Eg: I was using fixed 100% volume on Ultra and running into an integrated amp. But adjusting EQ upwards (particularly bass), causes more gain, but since the Ultra is already at 100% it actually acts like a ducking effect. I really noticed this on songs with a fast kick drum (EDM, Black Metal etc) - the output almost sounds as if there is a quick volume change after every kick beat.

So in order to take advantage of boosting the bass etc, I have to run the Ultra at below 100% to illuminate this issue. It absolutely makes sense, but I swear this is the only device I've ever owned where this has been an issue.

There's a volume limit setting for this exact use case in the Audio Settings. You can conveniently use the full range of the WiiM Ultra's volume control without thinking about it, the volume limit will take care of the digital headroom.

Currently, I just use the A5 with its own remote and a CD player as a source. I'm interested in adding a streamer and I like the Ultra but the fact that it acts as a PreAmp complicates things. The other problem is that the A5 has only analog inputs. I was trying to avoid having two PreAmp sections in the same system.

You worry about this too much. There are not really two pre-amp sections in the signal path with one being surplus.

As long as you don't connect anything to the Ultra's phono or line input, the signal fully stays in the digital domain. There's no amplification going on there at all. There can be digital signal processing, of course, if you want to benefit from the digital EQ.

Even if you do use the line or phono input, both are immediately digitised by the WiiM Ultra. No additional gain stage. Nothing to lose. It's really not as complicated as you might think.

 

[seurat0109]

There's a volume limit setting for this exact case in the Audio Settings. You can conveniently use the full range of the WiiM Ultra's volume control without thinking about it, the volume limit will take care of the digital headroom.


You worry about this too much. There are not really two pre-amp sections in the signal path with one being surplus.

As long as you don't connect anything to the Ultra's phono or line input, the signal fully stays in the digital domain. There's no amplification going on there at all. There can be digital signal processing, of course, if you want to benefit from the digital EQ.

Even if you do use the line or phono input, both are immediately digitised by the WiiM Ultra. No additional gain stage. Nothing to lose. It's really not as complicated as you might think.

Thanks for the clarification.

What you say is clearly correct (Wiim's literature shows combining the Ultra and Vibelink - both have volume controls). I checked the Vibelink manual and they don't mention any issues relating to volume controls, just that you set them appropriately.

Thanks to you and all the others who commented. I'm comfortable enough to order an Ultra and give it a go.

 

[narcoleptic-haze]

There's a volume limit setting for this exact case in the Audio Settings. You can conveniently use the full range of the WiiM Ultra's volume control without thinking about it, the volume limit will take care of the digital headroom.

I'll have to look into this! I thought I looked around for a way around this but didn't get far the first time around (aside fro simply turning the volume down). Cheers!

 

[Mr Ee]

I'll have to look into this! I thought I looked around for a way around this but didn't get far the first time around (aside fro simply turning the volume down). Cheers!

Audio Settings, Volume Limit.

 

[Thommy]

There's a volume limit setting for this exact use case in the Audio Settings. You can conveniently use the full range of the WiiM Ultra's volume control without thinking about it, the volume limit will take care of the digital headroom.


You worry about this too much. There are not really two pre-amp sections in the signal path with one being surplus.

As long as you don't connect anything to the Ultra's phono or line input, the signal fully stays in the digital domain. There's no amplification going on there at all. There can be digital signal processing, of course, if you want to benefit from the digital EQ.

Even if you do use the line or phono input, both are immediately digitised by the WiiM Ultra. No additional gain stage. Nothing to lose. It's really not as complicated as you might think.

Hi. narcoleptic-haze started a topic that is quite important to me. I am not very knowledgeable about this issue so I would like to ask you to clarify a little. I bought a wiim ultra that I connect to an old Yamaha amplifier via the line output. I want to use room correction and parametric eq. It is clear to me that in this case digital processing is necessary and that it no longer makes sense to set the output to 100% in order to get bitperfect reproduction. The advantages of room correction outweigh the shortcomings of digital volume control so I will control the volume through the wiim ultra. Now, when it comes to room response correction, it has been said that it is better to cut the curve than to boost it because digital distortion can occur. I say "digital" because I understood that this distortion was related to bit depth and sampling rate limitations. If I understand correctly, it is about amplifying a part of the curve beyond 0 dbfs causing distortion. This can be circumvented by reducing the entire signal level in order to leave headroom for the amplified part of the curve. Logic tells me that the level to which I would have to reduce the signal level is equivalent to the level of the boosted part of the curve. So, for example, if I use PE or automatic room correction where some parts of the room response curve will be boosted, then I can no longer set the volume control to 100% but must reduce the volume level or turn on the volume limiter. What does this limiter do in practice? Does it reduce the level by the amount of the bass boost or what? I do not fully understand it. Thanks in advance.

 

[Burnside]

Hi. narcoleptic-haze started a topic that is quite important to me. I am not very knowledgeable about this issue so I would like to ask you to clarify a little. I bought a wiim ultra that I connect to an old Yamaha amplifier via the line output. I want to use room correction and parametric eq. It is clear to me that in this case digital processing is necessary and that it no longer makes sense to set the output to 100% in order to get bitperfect reproduction. The advantages of room correction outweigh the shortcomings of digital volume control so I will control the volume through the wiim ultra. Now, when it comes to room response correction, it has been said that it is better to cut the curve than to boost it because digital distortion can occur. I say "digital" because I understood that this distortion was related to bit depth and sampling rate limitations. If I understand correctly, it is about amplifying a part of the curve beyond 0 dbfs causing distortion. This can be circumvented by reducing the entire signal level in order to leave headroom for the amplified part of the curve. Logic tells me that the level to which I would have to reduce the signal level is equivalent to the level of the boosted part of the curve. So, for example, if I use PE or automatic room correction where some parts of the room response curve will be boosted, then I can no longer set the volume control to 100% but must reduce the volume level or turn on the volume limiter. What does this limiter do in practice? Does it reduce the level by the amount of the bass boost or what? I do not fully understand it. Thanks in advance.

This post describes how to use REW for your PEQ settings to set the WiiM volume limit appropriately to minimise the risk of digital clipping

O

Post in thread 'PEQ talk'

Nov 9, 2023

Download REW, apply your PEQ settings, read the required headroom, divide it by 0.6 and you will get the minimum required percentage value to use for the volume limiter.

• onlyoneme

• 

 

[Thommy]

This post describes how to use REW for your PEQ settings to set the WiiM volume limit appropriately to minimise the risk of digital clipping

O

Post in thread 'PEQ talk'

Nov 9, 2023

Download REW, apply your PEQ settings, read the required headroom, divide it by 0.6 and you will get the minimum required percentage value to use for the volume limiter.

• onlyoneme

• 

This was quick! I'll take a look. Thanks.

 

[harkpabst]

This was quick! I'll take a look. Thanks.

You pretty much got the basic concepts correct, btw. Just follow the advice given by @onlyoneme and you are 100% safe.

Having said that, not all sources provide input levels up to 0 dBFS. This is most obvious with older analogue sources, which are immediately digitised by WiiM Ultra. If the maximum analogue level doesn't come close to 2 Vrms, the resulting digital signal won't reach 0 dBFS. Also, many TVS seem to put out much lower digital signals (for whatever reason). In these cases you can still apply positive pre-gain to level match different inputs.

WiiM do not auto-correct for positive gain EQ values (be it room correction or manual EQ), but they have implemented their own processing to avoid digital clipping. As a result there's no need to be too concerned about digital clipping. If you follow the above mentioned guidelines you are really absolutely safe.

 

[Burnside]

WiiM do not auto-correct for positive gain EQ values (be it room correction or manual EQ), but they have implemented their own processing to avoid digital clipping. As a result there's no need to be too concerned about digital clipping. If you follow the above mentioned guidelines you are really absolutely safe.

Thanks, had forgotten about that…

 

[canard]

You pretty much got the basic concepts correct, btw. Just follow the advice given by @onlyoneme and you are 100% safe.

Having said that, not all sources provide input levels up to 0 dBFS. This is most obvious with older analogue sources, which are immediately digitised by WiiM Ultra. If the maximum analogue level doesn't come close to 2 Vrms, the resulting digital signal won't reach 0 dBFS. Also, many TVS seem to put out much lower digital signals (for whatever reason). In these cases you can still apply positive pre-gain to level match different inputs.

WiiM do not auto-correct for positive gain EQ values (be it room correction or manual EQ), but they have implemented their own processing to avoid digital clipping. As a result there's no need to be too concerned about digital clipping. If you follow the above mentioned guidelines you are really absolutely safe.

it remains a form of clipping managed by a drc (if fairly significant gains in frequency ranges "with level" will of course often be engaged..) if more secure than having nothing, it remains not comparable to an intelligent and normal management of the gain..don't go telling wiim that it's good...otherwise we will never make the effort to resolve this point

 

[harkpabst]

don't go telling wiim that it's good...otherwise we will never make the effort to resolve this point

That wasn't my intention.