Bitperfect vs 99% volume?

[Lanzar]

Hi!

I'm using the Wiim mini connected with toslink to an external DAC. The sound (spotify, tidal) sounds brighter and harsh compared to a CD-player connected to the same DAC. The volume is also higher than the CD-player when using fixed volume. Setting the volume limiter in the wiim app to 99% semms to soften the sound but also makes it less detailed. So i'm a little bit confused here, is the bitperfect sound at 100% clipping due to the higher output level than my CD and therefore making the sound harsh, or is the volume limiter degrading the sound that much when it's not bitperfect anymore? There is a very noticeable difference switching between 99-100% volume limiter so something is definately going on. I can't figure out the better choice is here, 99% sounds more like the CD-player but then again 100% is bitperfect and therefore "how it is supposed to sound", but after all does not sound right to my ears.

 

[Mr Ee]

It is hard for me to confess....you may know my relation to "smart" devices like Echo is not that from a native Alexa user
I have a Studio at my bedside and listen to audio books via Spotify nearly every evening while falling to sleep.
Please do not give this information to @Brantome and @Wiimer

How do you know how far to rewind the story each night to carry on from where you fell asleep?
Kindle all the way....

To get sort of back on topic, and even though I'm sure it's been asked and answered before:
100% volume vs fixed volume - any difference?
Sometimes it's just sooo much easier to have variable volume so I don't need to reach for the amp remote too...

 

[Mr Ee]

I suppose a likely response will be 'if you can't tell the difference then it doesn't matter', which would be fair enough!
I guess convenience wins yet again.

 

[Wiimer]

It is hard for me to confess....you may know my relation to "smart" devices like Echo is not that from a native Alexa user
I have a Studio at my bedside and listen to audio books via Spotify nearly every evening while falling to sleep.
Please do not give this information to @Brantome and @Wiimer

!!!!!

But I'm sorry, but I'm more concerned about @Brantome's "Great room" than your confession.

How wonderful is the great room?

 

[Mr Ee]

!!!!!

But I'm sorry, but I'm more concerned about @Brantome's "Great room" than your confession.

How wonderful is the great room?

It's in a Scottish castle.... more rooms than he can shake a wiim at.

 

[Brantome]

For simply falling into sleep it does not matter. Even if I hear the same chapters again and again. I guess it is the voice of the narrators..
It does not work with music. Could be I am not able to hear music inattentive

I find audible books and podcasts on my bedside echo show the most effective way to fall asleep I like the Michael Connelly Bosch novels, and the actor who plays Bosch on TV (Titus Welliver) also narrates the books. He has a very chilled LA drawl and I never manage more than a half a chapter before I’m fast asleep. I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve had to rewind audio books…

 

[Brantome]

But I'm sorry, but I'm more concerned about @Brantome's "Great room" than your confession.

How wonderful is the great room?

Just a lazy choice of the names offered in the alexa app when testing something - I could say my room is great because I’m in it, but I’m far too modest

 

[ratty]

Intersample peaks are a problem in the analog and not digital domain and even there they usually are not a huge issue. I've seen intersample peaks up to almost +3 dB and they did not cause audible issues.

Crackling clearly sounds like it is a digital issue.

It could be in the digital domain too, depending on DAC oversampling/interpolation.

MUSINGS / MEASUREMENTS: A look at Intersample Peaks and Overload Tolerance... (RME ADI-2 Pro FS, TEAC UD-501, Oppo UDP-205)

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

 

[Iannis]

Intersample peaks.

Full scale - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I think that the Spotify crackles problem has been solved. All Spotify applications (mobile or Windows) have a setting on volume normalisation, which is turned on by default. Once this was turned to off, all crackles disappeared. Here is an explanation I propose, along the lines of what I wrote before.
Spotify applies normalisation based on loudness, i.e. max-min levels in every song. To achieve a more realistic effect for the listener, this is not based on the difference between highest-lowest peak in the entire song, but on an average measure of loudness. For a low loudness song for example, this will multiply each 16-bit sample by a single number. This does not exclude, however, the fact that there could already be peaks at full level in the original song (i.e. the highest 16 bit number) as well as near picks. Both will be represented as peaks after normalisation. Conversion at the DAC can result in distorted audio (crackles). The reason casting to a Google mini speaker did not present the problem, is probably due to processing at the digital stage by the speaker to limit the dynamic range of the input and protect the small diameter driver.
That said, I still have not come to a satisfactory explanation on why the crackles disappear when the volume is lowered at the digital level by WiiM, even with Spotify's normalisation set to ON.
Conclusion: if you want bit-perfect audio from Spotify, make sure to turn off volume normalisation.

 

[MrSoul4470]

I think Spotify's volume normalization does not apply for Spotify Connect. The setting is greyed out in the menu and has no effect when you're connected via Spotify Connect. Or am I missing something?

 

[Iannis]

I think Spotify's volume normalization does not apply for Spotify Connect. The setting is greyed out in the menu and has no effect when you're connected via Spotify Connect. Or am I missing something?

I used the standard applications in Android and Windows. Both incorporate Spotify Connect for casting. The settings menu showed a sliding button on volume normalisation, which could be turned to off.

 

[MrSoul4470]

Thanks. And you can switch it on and off WHILE casting via Spotify Connect? Strange, because for me that setting is greyed out when I'm using Spotify Connect (and it has always been like that).

 

[Iannis]

Thanks. And you can switch it on and off WHILE casting via Spotify Connect? Strange, because for me that setting is greyed out when I'm using Spotify Connect (and it has always been like that).

I am not a fan of Spotify myself; I think their applications are badly done, even different from device to device, and frequently unstable. Probably you are a victim of one of these "variants", but I assume that a grayed out button means no normalisation, so you should be OK.

 

[MrSoul4470]

I don't think that I am the exception. The general consens on the internet is that volume normalization doesn't work with Spotify Connect.

 

[Iannis]

I don't think that I am the exception. The general consens on the internet is that volume normalization doesn't work with Spotify Connect.

Well, things have changed! Via an extended playlist session in Spotify, with the volume normalisation to OFF, I started hearing crackles again after some 10-12 songs. I also saw that it is not possible to turn on/off normalisation while casting - button greyed out. Still, it is possible to do so when no casting takes place. In all cases, the crackles problem persists and defies explanation - unless of course we assume that Spotify's application does not turn off normalisation even if it appears to have done so. The only remaining option to avoid crackles is lowering the digital volume by a small amount. Any ideas welcome.

 

[ratty]

Change the DAC for one which provides headroom for intersample peaks?

 

[Iannis]

Change the DAC for one which provides headroom for intersample peaks?

Well, easy to say but... I am using Amazon's Echo Studio and the DAC is integrated. Should this be the case, would it not behave similarly when I play music via my NAS? No crackles there at all, and neither when playing diectly via Amazon music. The problem is specific to Spotify.

 

[Iannis]

Well, easy to say but... I am using Amazon's Echo Studio and the DAC is integrated. Should this be the case, would it not behave similarly when I play music via my NAS? No crackles there at all, and neither when playing diectly via Amazon music. The problem is specific to Spotify.

Just verified via the Spotify forums: Normalisation only works when playing on the local device, not when casting via a network.

 

[Brantome]

Back to my earlier question - have you tried casting directly to the Echo Studio and not via the WiiM?

 

[Iannis]

Back to my earlier question - have you tried casting directly to the Echo Studio and not via the WiiM?

Unfortunately I cannot test this. On trying to link my Alexa account to Spotify I get the message: not available due to geo-restrictions. Something warped goes on with Alexa accounts. My original account is UK but the Echo Studio under the same account is under another country and remains ...invisible

 

[Brantome]

Unfortunately I cannot test this. On trying to link my Alexa account to Spotify I get the message: not available due to geo-restrictions. Something warped goes on with Alexa accounts. My original account is UK but the Echo Studio under the same account is under another country and remains ...invisible

Yeah, sounds like you have a clash of regions in the account. If you don’t have any subscriptions - music, kindle etc - you could try changing your country/region under your account content preferences to match your amazon and Spotify accounts, but I’m aware that may cause issues over which Alexa server you then attach to and which skills you may need access to.