DSD to PCM transcode on-the-fly

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Mike in NY

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I have ripped my many SACDs to .DSF files that are currently unplayable with the WiiM Pro.

Many free open source distros such as Volumio or Moode can do on-the-fly transcoding of these DSD file types to hi-res PCM, either 24/176.4 or even 24/88.2 transcoding on-the-fly would be a great feature addition to the WiiM Pro.
 
In the Wiim Ultra Q&A, Wiim says they are developing a feature to convert DSD to PCM on the fly. No other details given. See question 11 in the Q&A.
 
Thanks.
This is surprising and good on the Wiim team for taking onboard the requests from the community, but I still can't see the benefit of waiting for this instead of just converting the files to PCM/FLAC for near universal playback compatibility.
 
I wouldn't hold your breath, SACD/DSD is a dead format.
Convert the files to FLAC, hi-res or just 16/44 as you please, and tell me if they sound any worse.
I'm not sure what the joke is here.
That DSD is dead, or that you can hear the difference between on-the-fly and offline conversion?
 
Thanks.
This is surprising and good on the Wiim team for taking onboard the requests from the community, but I still can't see the benefit of waiting for this instead of just converting the files to PCM/FLAC for near universal playback compatibility.

No conversion of any files is necessary or desirable. At the time of the OP here, I had the WiiM Pro connected to an external DAC, subsequently updated to the Pro Plus, which uses it's own onboard DAC.

I have two local server options, DLNA/UPnP, and LMS. Of those two, LMS can easily transcode DSD files on-the-fly to 24-bit PCM. DLNA/UPnP should also be able to do that, however at least in my case that produces silence on the Pro Plus, whereas LMS plays music, so for me personally it's solved without actually being a finished feature with an available setting on the WiiM devices.

The need for this is not a monumental task in firmware, this has been commonly available on endpoint software for Raspberry Pi for many years, distros like Volumio, Moode, RoPieee, and piCorePlayer just to name a few. This should not have been a huge ask, and it is a feature that some might use, even if not you.

I wouldn't hold your breath

I'm not holding my breath, however if you see Post # 4 above, you'll note this has been on WiiM's road map for quite some time now and they haven't removed it, they just haven't found the time to test and implement the feature among various competing priorities.

SACD/DSD is a dead format.

To the masses yes, and that was always the case/nothing new, SACD never gained mass market traction even though it did beat the competitor DVD-Audio format, a pyrrhic victory of sorts, the overall war was still lost. That said, the format is not dead when there are literally hundreds of new titles released every year, largely in the classical music realm (BIS Records does about 70-80 new releases every year), but also by specialty boutique reissue labels such as Analogue Productions, Mobile Fidelity, Intervention Records, Impex, etc... not to mention the major record labels too (Sony/Warner/Universal), though their releases are restricted to the Japan/Hong Kong markets.

I'm not sure what the joke is here.
That DSD is dead

That's the joke, you are not the proclaimer of dead formats. See above, there is still a small niche buying market for SACD, largely record collectors and audiophiles, but dead would mean they are no longer being released as with DVD-Audio (that's a truly dead format).

Convert the files to FLAC, hi-res or just 16/44 as you please, and tell me if they sound any worse.

Because physically converting them would take time and effort for no reason. I have various streaming options outside of the WiiM devices that stream native DSD, and they are not expensive (they are Raspberry Pi based). A couple have their own integrated DAC, while the others output native DSD over USB to any DSD capable DAC (most are capable these days and have been for about 10-12 years now). On-the-fly conversion via software is much preferred, you can still listen to those files in their native state on any compatible setup, or listen to the transcoded PCM on devices like the WiiM, while leaving the file in it's native state.

Actual down sampling to 16/44.1 is neither lossless, nor sonically transparent, and since you very likely have no DSD files and have never even done that, you should probably just leave it alone. There is absolutely no reason to run around deciding who can hear what, if I own the album in a higher-resolution format, that's probably because I wanted that particular mastering job and/or transfer from the original tape source, and find the standard CD version to be lacking or mediocre. I'm sure you aren't going to now say that no one can hear any difference between different mastering, or transfers from an original tape source vs. a tape copy, right?
 
I appreciate your lengthy reply.
You've obviously taken opinion as some sort of personal attack which is not my intention.

Yes I have SACDs
Yes I have ripped them and converted them and played them.
Yes I find ripping them in their native encoding to be a major hassle as most of my equipment does not support playing them or is very fussy to the point of failing most of the time.

DVD movies are still produced and purchased, I certainly consider this to be a dead format anyway but I understand your clarification.
Maybe calling them zombie or un-dead formats is more accurate.

You have already goon to the effort converting from SACD disc to file format, why not just convert them to a format you can easily play rather than bemoan that you can't play them on a certain device?

Converting DSDs on-the-the fly to any PCM format is technically a lossy process, if I'm not mistaken, my point is that I don't see any reason to not just convert them off line to save many head aches (in my experience).
 
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I've also have a lot of DSD on my Synology NAS ds1821+ running minimserver and bubble UPnP as a control point. It works great, Bubble transcode the files on the fly for playback on my Wiim pro plus. The files get transcoded to 192 kHz 24 bit. 1000030268.jpg
 
I appreciate your lengthy reply.
You've obviously taken opinion as some sort of personal attack which is not my intention.

I appreciate yours too, and no I didn't think it was a personal attack.

These feature request threads are meant to send a signal to WiiM, and there is a vote counter at the very upper right-hand side of the OP, though admittedly it's kind of too hard to see. What I hoped for in bumping this thread was for folks who want this feature that is already on the WiiM roadmap to simply upvote it. I don't think a bunch of commentary about dead format, and don't hold your breath, and whether or not 16/44.1 sounds the same is helpful in that regard.

You have already goon to the effort converting from SACD disc to file format, why not just convert them to a format you can easily play rather than bemoan that you can't play them on a certain device?

I can easily play the .dsf files from SACD rips, on nearly all of my gear. The WiiM was one such exception until I figured out that whatever the LMS server is doing for on-the-fly conversion to 24-bit FLAC is working with the Pro Plus, where it does not with my particular DLNA/UPnP server instance. So it's problem solved for me, but it would be nice if I (or others) had the option to have that transcode occur at the endpoint and not server side, and it shouldn't be too difficult given it's been available for years on free software such as Volumio, Moode, RoPieee, piCorePlayer etc... and it is on WiiM's roadmap. I'm guessing it got deprioritized on their end when no one upvoted it here, bumping this thread whose inception dates to one year ago was an attempt to get eyes on it and hopefully some upvotes.

I do understand that the core target audience for bargain priced gear such as the WiiM devices are not likely SACD users.
 
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Thanks.
I wasn't trying to derail your thread.
I'm interested to hear what others think on the subject, I'm just sharing my opinion.

My underlying question remains.
Assuming that most equipment can't natively decode DSD anyway and whatever sonic advantage that may or may not bring, what is the advantage of transcoding on-the-fly vs just converting the file offline to a widely supported format?
For archival purposes you still have the original disc or can store an ISO, for playback there are other options.

My Wiim can't play back my ripped Blu-Ray audio files either (ripped to MKA files with Dolby TrueHD Atmos audio) which could be considered the successor to SACD (hi-res multi-channel audio disc), which I also doubt will gain any mass market support.
 
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Assuming that most equipment can't natively decode DSD

Thats not an assumption that should be made, even inexpensive DACs have full DSD support these days and it's actually been that way for years now. In fact the DACs used in the WiiM Pro Plus (AKM), and the forthcoming Ultra (ESS) both fully support DSD, it's the WiiM firmware that doesn't not. I've already mentioned all of the free software distros that run on the humble Raspberry Pi hardware that also fully support DSD, as do software server applications such as Roon, Audirvana, JRiver, Foobar etc... DSD has very wide support at this point. Look at the next price point up, things like Eversolo, or Cambridge Audio, those streamer/DACs also fully support DSD, as does the high-end stuff.

My underlying question remains.

I've answered it, there is no reason to ditch the native file format when it can easily be transcoded on-the-fly, no reason to spend time and use additional storage space to create a lower resolution/non bit perfect version of the file when you can easily play it in it's native format, or transcode it on-the-fly with something as inexpensive as a Raspberry Pi.

Let me say this one other way, WiiM's original native endpoint mode was DLNA/UPnP, and at this thread's inception over 1 year ago there was not any option for Squeezelite. That is why I posted this thread hoping the feature request would be upvoted. Additionally, at that time the Pro Plus also did not exist, and the DAC used in the WiiM Pro is not DSD compatible. Now thats all changed, the Pro Plus and forthcoming Ultra both use DSD compatible DACs, in my perfect world WiiM would add native DSD support for them, however as yet all they've announced is a transcode on-the-fly feature in the works.

These feature request threads are not intended to debate "what's best", or "what's dead", or to debate "what can and cannot be heard", they are merely to suggest a feature upgrade so that WiiM can consider it and others can upvote it if they choose.

Unfortunately the forum software UI isn't great and darn near no one even sees that upvote option in the OP, hence replies like yours.
My Wiim can't play back my ripped Blu-Ray audio files either (ripped to MKA files with Dolby TrueHD Atmos audio)

That is a completely different kettle of fish being it is multichannel with Atmos encoding. I'm sure you can play the stereo tracks ripped from Blu-ray Audio discs if file converted to FLAC.

Last bit on this at the risk of repeating myself which I'll stop doing... LMS/Squeezelite does not have the same problem as DLNA/UPnP with regard to server side transcode on-the-fly of DSD to 24-bit FLAC, so I'm all good. I'd just like to see WiiM make good on their road map and implement endpoint side transcoding so that owners and prospective buyers of their devices can know without any server side complexities that playback of DSD is in fact possible with the WiiM devices. Better yet would be adding native DSD processing to the Pro Plus and Ultra as both have DACs that are fully capable, but thats not currently on the road map at all and may never be.
 
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Thats not an assumption that should be made, even inexpensive DACs have full DSD support these days and it's actually been that way for years now. In fact the DACs used in the WiiM Pro Plus (AKM), and the forthcoming Ultra (ESS) both fully support DSD,
I had read/understood that the ESS DACs actually do a conversion to PCM and then to analog. I'm really not sure what difference this makes vs native decoding or how well this is supported
That is a completely different kettle of fish being it is multichannel with Atmos encoding. I'm sure you can play the stereo tracks ripped from Blu-ray Audio discs if file converted to FLAC.
That's my point exactly. I have few devices which can decode this format natively but can easily convert the files for universal support.
Processing power to convert audio is minimal, as is the storage requirement for multiple versions as inelegant as that solution may be.
 
I had read/understood that the ESS DACs actually do a conversion to PCM and then to analog. I'm really not sure what difference this makes vs native decoding or how well this is supported

Inaccurate, a very broad stroke there, but also ignoring the simple fact that a transcode on-the-fly feature is not heavy lifting. If it were then free software running on the humble Raspberry Pi wouldn't offer it either. But they do, and have for many years now. WiiM has this on their road map, it will get done.
That's my point exactly.

No your point was the suggestion that very little gear supports DSD, and that is also inaccurate, I've named off a bunch of stuff that does, what is your big stash of gear that is incompatible with DSD? The list of brands that support DSD is nearly endless at this point, the only crap I can think of that stubbornly doesn't are Bluesound and Sonos, and some legacy gear that dates back 15 or so years.
 
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