Help me connect my Ultra to my Oppo BDP-105...

[motleypixel]

I hope this plan pans out for me. I just picked up a MINT Oppo BDP-105, it's basically a very high quality multi disk format player with two ESS Sabre32 Reference DACs. Why 2? Well one is shared for optical/coax/hdmi and the other is dedicated to the balanced XLR output, which is what I will be using, connecting the L/R XLR to my L/R mono block amplifiers.

Current setup is an Ultra, SMSL P-100 CD transport, Pioneer PL-510A TT, Fosi BT30D Pro amp, and a pair of passive speakers and an active sub where it's connected to the Ultra via coax LFE. The CD transport is connected via optical and of course the TT is connected to the phono stage L/R RCA/gnd.

What I want to do now is remove the SMSL P0100 cd transport, replace the Fosi BT30D Pro amp with two Fosi V3 mono blocks using XLR between them and the Oppo. I will still connect my active SW via LFE to the Ultra and my TT to the Ultra. What I feel is the best to do is connect the Ultra USB-A out to the Oppo USB-B (square printer type) digital input. Is this better than the coax out or optical out on the Ultra? If so why?

Finally, I have two older USB-A to USB-B cables, will they all work the same or should I buy a better one?

Thank you.

 

[HansD-NL]

Choose optical, this will provide galvanic isolation between the Ultra and the Oppo. Cool device by the way the Oppo, loads of functionality and seems well built.

 

[dtc]

The 105 was cutting edge in its day. Pretty sure that model also supports ripping SACDs with a little magic. I just retired my 93 so I could do 4K.

 

[motleypixel]

Choose optical, this will provide galvanic isolation between the Ultra and the Oppo. Cool device by the way the Oppo, loads of functionality and seems well built.

Interesting, I've never heard of this "galvanic isolation".

The USB input on the Oppo BDP-105 provides 2chl 192kHz PCM where as the coax/optical only provides 2chl 96kHz PCM but also Dolby Digital, DTS, and ACC all of which are audio codecs for video and I don't care about that.

With this info, would you still recommend optical?

Thank you.

 

[dtc]

All electrical signals have some degree of noise on them. It is usually too small to matter but can sometimes cause problems. Since the optical signal is light it disconnects any extraneous noise being based over the wires connecting the two systems. It is something to be considered but in most cases the effects of the electrical noise is pretty much irrelevant. Typically I would not give up functionality that you might use (in this case 24/192) for that isolation. But, the best way to tell is to do some testing.

You might also want to test the optical connection using the cable that Wiim ships. It passes 192 Khz which many optical cables do not. Because of the cable limitation some vendors used 92 KHz in their specs even though it could do 192 Khz. Easy to try.

 

[motleypixel]

All electrical signals have some degree of noise on them. It is usually too small to matter but can sometimes cause problems. Since the optical signal is light it disconnects any extraneous noise being based over the wires connecting the two systems. It is something to be considered but in most cases the effects of the electrical noise is pretty much irrelevant. Typically I would not give up functionality that you might use (in this case 24/192) for that isolation. But, the best way to tell is to do some testing.

You might also want to test the optical connection using the cable that Wiim ships. It passes 192 Khz which many optical cables do not. Because of the cable limitation some vendors used 92 KHz in their specs even though it could do 192 Khz. Easy to try.

Thank you, that makes sense, but what's all this jabber about "clocking" being better with USB?

Also, the DAC in the Oppo is a ESS Sabre32 Reference ES9018, actually two of them with one being dedicated to the XLR outputs and the Ultra has the ESS ES9038Q2M which is newer, with key differences being:

Technical specifications
ES9038Q2M (Ultra's):
Higher dynamic range (up to 129 dB)
Lower THD+N (down to -120 dB)
Supports up to 32-bit/768 kHz PCM and DSD512
Optimized for portable and low-power applications

ES9018 (Oppo's):
Slightly lower dynamic range (129 dB) *does this make sense? still same 129db as the Ultra's DAC?
Slightly higher THD+N (-120 dB) *does this make sense? still same 129db as the Ultra's DAC?
Supports up to 32-bit/384 kHz PCM and DSD128 *I am pretty sure I'm stuck with the Oppo playing DSD SACD layers through it's DAC, meaning even if I wanted to send to the Ultra the only way is via HDMI 1.2a as it's blocked via digital. And further so the Ultra's HDMI is for ARC only so should not be a concern here.
"Sabre32 Reference" class, designed for a variety of applications

What I feel is they are very comparable DACS and even if the Ultra's is slightly better on paper, the Oppo's circuitry/build/power for there DAC is superior and could actually sound better? IDK?

Thank you.

 

[hgo58]

Thank you, that makes sense, but what's all this jabber about "clocking" being better with USB?

There is no clock associated with the USB audio data, so the receiver must provide its own clock. For the SPDIF optical the clock is imbedded in the data, so it is senders clock that is used by the DAC (unless it re-clock it).

So the USB is only better in this regard, if the receiving unit has a better clock than sender. A bad optical cable may however disturb the clock while the USB connection don't do that, so many people prefer to let the receiver provide the sample clocking. A more expensive unit may also have a better clock but the WiiM Ultra have a pretty good clock so not really any need to not use it.

And why do the clock matter? A more precise clock mean lower jitter noise. The jitter noise from any modern DAC is however below the threshold of the human hearing. So I would not care about this at all.

 

[HansD-NL]

My advice is: Don't go down a rabbit hole. Both Dacs are transparent to the source. The DAC "magic" has been solved for years now and for sure some brands will make mistakes in the implementation but that's rare these days.

 

[motleypixel]

My advice is: Don't go down a rabbit hole. Both Dacs are transparent to the source. The DAC "magic" has been solved for years now and for sure some brands will make mistakes in the implementation but that's rare these days.

This makes sense, but I want to leverage the XLR out of the Oppo to my mono-blocks because they are slightly better (based on science, and amirm's review of the V3 on ASR, data clearly shows the XLR to be better than the RCA input on that amp). So to do this I must connect the Ultra to one of the 3 Oppo's digital inputs (coax, optical or USB).

The Oppo will be set to always pwr on to this input and volume set static at 100%. I will limit's the Ultra's volume to about 65% which is probably 20% higher than I ever listen, and use the Ultra as my source pre-amp and volume control.

So, I'm going to do it, just trying to vet out which way and I think I'm going to setup a bench test with the USB and if it sounds good, then just stick with that.

Thank you.

 

[motleypixel]

There are no clock associated with the USB audio data, so the receiver must provide its own clock. For the SPDIF optical the clock is imbedded in the data, so it is senders clock that is used by the DAC (unless it re-clock it).

So the USB is only better in this regard if the receiving unit has a better clock than sender. A bad optical cable may however disturb the clock while the USB connection don't do that, so many people prefer to let the receiver provide the sample clocking. A more expensive unit may also have a better clock but the WiiM Ultra have a pretty good clock so not really any need to not use it.

And why do the clock matter? A more precise clock mean lower jitter noise. The jitter noise from any modern DAC is however below the threshold of the human hearing. So I would not care about this at all.

Thanks for that! I think I'm going to try USB first and see how that goes.

 

[motleypixel]

Well, now for a final update and new considerations, this Oppo with the WiiM is a little wacky:

If I connect the Ultra to the Oppo via any digital (optical/coax/USB) and the operation of music play is from the Ultra (stream, local music library, or phono), then I have to switch the input on the Oppo to digital and then return from the Oppo's L/R RCA output to the L/R RCA input of the WiiM. So that's sort of wonky if you ask me, what's the signal path of the Ultra's RCA input? I know if RC is enabled or EQ then it must be altered in some way right? The RCA I/P is not sterile correct?

Then if I want to play a CD/SACD I have to switch the input on the Oppo to BluRay and it will output from the L/R RCA output to the L/R RCA input of the WiiM.

So this is where I am now (First Option):

Oppo set to BlueRay to spin discs, with RCA L/R out of the Oppo to the RCA L/R input of the Ultra, then RCA L/R output of the Ultra to my Fosi BT30D Pro amp. The oppo is set to full 100% fixed volume and pure audio (disables all video circuitry). This is too bad, I really wanted to use the XLR out of the Oppo to my XLR inputs on my two mono block amps.

A second option now I'm trying to vet:

Using a Nobsound Little Bear MC3 switch: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../little-bear-mc3-xlr-rca-switch-review.45636/

I would run RCA L/R out of the Ultra to the RCA I/P of the MC3 and XLR out of the Oppo to the XLR I/P of the MC3 and then one of the XLR L/R O/P of the MC3 to one each XLR I/P to my mono block amps.

When playing a CD/SACD I would set the MC3 to XLR I/P and I would have to disable fixed 100% volume and use the Oppo's remote for volume control but the output would by-pass the Ultra and the RC it provides and head straight to mono block amps w/o zero volume and tone controls. Furthermore the Oppo does not have and EQ functionality for this path/playback.

When playing everything else from the Ultra (streaming/Phono) I would set the MC3 to RCA I/P and the MC3 remaining on it's only one needed XLR O/P to the mono blocks.

Would this second option be much different than my first method and if so how/why?

Thank you.

 

[Mr Ee]

Something's a bit wacky with your first description!
If the wiim ultra is the phono or streaming source going digital out to the oppo then that's it as far as the ultra is concerned - it cannot possibly then be using that signal back into its line in via the oppo's line out.

If your main goal is to use the oppo xlr outputs (or would the goal be better described as using the mono block amps' xlr inputs?) then isn't it simply wiim ultra -> digital to oppo -> xlr to amps?
It would mean that CDs played in the oppo wouldn't have any EQ etc, but anything played from the ultra could.
The ultra could be set to max volume (doesn't need to be Fixed) - you'd mostly use the oppo volume control, but could use the ultra one too if wanted when that's the source.

Another option would be oppo -> digital or analog to ultra -> rca out to mono blocks xlr in. That final step could be done with an rca to xlr cable, or something like the mc3 (in this simple scenario you would only need / use one rca input and one xlr output).
This would allow EQ etc. to be applied to everything.

One thing to note - the ultra's rca output is 2v max. I've not checked, but the oppo's xlr out is probably more like 4v.
If you were to do as you described, both the ultra and the oppo going to an mc3 and you then choosing between these two sources, then the oppo would sound noticeably louder than the ultra.

And depending on the amps, your speakers, the particular song and how loud you like your music, the 2v ultra rca output might not be enough.
i.e. the amps "expect" an xlr level (usually 4v) input, so their gain might not be high enough if only fed 2v.

 

[motleypixel]

Something's a bit wacky with your first description!
If the wiim ultra is the phono or streaming source going digital out to the oppo then that's it as far as the ultra is concerned - it cannot possibly then be using that signal back into its line in via the oppo's line out.

This is true but I began with this, and it was frustrating.

If your main goal is to use the oppo xlr outputs (or would the goal be better described as using the mono block amps' xlr inputs?) then isn't it simply wiim ultra -> digital to oppo -> xlr to amps?
It would mean that CDs played in the oppo wouldn't have any EQ etc, but anything played from the ultra could.
The ultra could be set to max volume (doesn't need to be Fixed) - you'd mostly use the oppo volume control, but could use the ultra one too if wanted when that's the source.

I should have tested this more when I was bench testing, I was getting the return back from the Oppo via RCA to the Ultra mixed up here. So if I set the Oppo to digital input, then any signal from the Ultra should play out of of the Oppo's XLR to my mono blocks. I think the hang up too was when I played an SACD on the bench. Now this issue comes when I want to play a CD/SACD then I change the input on the Oppo to "Bluray" and the disc plays directly out of the Oppo so I will forgo not only RC/EQ but also my active sub that is handled by the Ultra. *Unless, I use the sub out from the Oppo? This would probably be the ideal situation, but again, that being said all subwoofer DSP stuffs from the Ultra will not be in effect, but at least when playing a disc I would have my SW. Then when I change back to digital (probably USB) then RC would work, but again, no sub correction right?

Another option would be oppo -> digital or analog to ultra -> rca out to mono blocks xlr in. That final step could be done with an rca to xlr cable, or something like the mc3 (in this simple scenario you would only need / use one rca input and one xlr output).
This would allow EQ etc. to be applied to everything.

This might be the simplest thing to do. But note, I can NOT use digital out of the Oppo and spin SACDs. This is basically what I'm doing right now, Stereo Audio Out L/R RCA from the Oppo to RCA L/R I/P to the Ultra, then RCA L/R O/P of the Ultra to currently a Fosi BT30D pro but will replace with two V3 mono blocks.

One thing to note - the ultra's rca output is 2v max. I've not checked, but the oppo's xlr out is probably more like 4v.
If you were to do as you described, both the ultra and the oppo going to an mc3 and you then choosing between these two sources, then the oppo would sound noticeably louder than the ultra.

And depending on the amps, your speakers, the particular song and how loud you like your music, the 2v ultra rca output might not be enough.
i.e. the amps "expect" an xlr level (usually 4v) input, so their gain might not be high enough if only fed 2v.

Well, this makes sense, there is an RCA gain toggle on the back of the V3 mono 19db and 25db which I assume is only for the RCA input. So perhaps using an RCA>XLR cable to the V3's is not a good idea as the XLR end would only have 2V instead of 4V so maybe just better to use the 25db gain and do pure RCA out of the Ultra to each L/R of each V3 mono RCA input?

I'm just trying to configure this setup best I can for quality first, then simplicity second.

Thank you.

 

[Mr Ee]

Unless you like background music I wouldn't even bother with 19db gain, probably there to make Sinad figure or similar look good

I don't recall you mentioning a sub before!!

Just an opinion, but I'd go oppo (analog for sacd, your choice of digital or analog for cd) -> ultra (and sub, and roomfit, and EQ) -> 25db gain rca amps.
The sub controls, roomfit and eq in the ultra would, imo, likely make a greater impact to perceived quality than rca vs xlr into the amps, and also any possible detriment of the additional adc and dac from the ultra line in. You could try different ultra line in adc sampling rates, but maybe just go with 24 / 96.
And yes, having a great sounding system is wonderful, but I really don't think convenience and simplicity to be able to enjoy that music should be underestimated!

Good luck, and feel free to ignore me / just try things out and see what suits you best.

 

[motleypixel]

Unless you like background music I wouldn't even bother with 19db gain, probably there to make Sinad figure or similar look good

I don't recall you mentioning a sub before!!

Just an opinion, but I'd go oppo (analog for sacd, your choice of digital or analog for cd) -> ultra (and sub, and roomfit, and EQ) -> 25db gain rca amps.
The sub controls, roomfit and eq in the ultra would, imo, likely make a greater impact to perceived quality than rca vs xlr into the amps, and also any possible detriment of the additional adc and dac from the ultra line in. You could try different ultra line in adc sampling rates, but maybe just go with 24 / 96.
And yes, having a great sounding system is wonderful, but I really don't think convenience and simplicity to be able to enjoy that music should be underestimated!

Good luck, and feel free to ignore me / just try things out and see what suits you best.

I appreciate your feedback/input, thank you! This is just one of those full-circle situations. I'm leaving it at RCA analog out of Oppo to in on Ultra, then RCA analog out of Ultra to RCA L on one mono and R on one mono both set to the 25db gain and call it a day! I don't want to mess with switching inputs on the Oppo due to SACD only playing via analog out or in a future endeavor HDMI 1.2A out to a capable DSD reading AVR for 5.1 channel surround