If you have to ask the question then you already know the answer!! 🤣🐍

[BowsAndArrows]

This thread was inspired by a statement by @CliffyBC in another thread... @AudioPervert 's thread https://forum.wiimhome.com/threads/snake-oil-or-good-upgrade.6845/

ofc nothing personal - was just a really interesting comment that got me thinking!!

Snake oil or good upgrade?
If you have to ask the question, you already know the answer.

really? that simple, huh?

i'm just fascinated by the arrogance in a statement like that... let me explain.

take - for example - "upgrading" speakers. this is something that we can all probably agree - is clearly NOT snake oil. right??

ok, so then you might ask yourself what is it about a particular speaker that makes it better than another??
is it using better parts (e.g. high end poly or foil capacitors vs cheap electrolytic ones) to construct it's crossover??
more exotic materials (beryllium anyone? ) to make the diaphragm of the drivers??
thicker/more inert/heavier construction to reduce cabinet resonances??
some sort of gel suspension system for the whole shebang??

go talk to speaker designers/engineers or read on their websites about what the upgrades are on the newer models vs the older models, and you'll realise that a lot of the specific stuff they mention would be dismissed as snake oil in any other context... for example - many manufacturers proudly tout something like "all internal wiring is cardas copper + high-Ag solder" etc etc. but if anyone asks about upgrading the interconnects in their system - they get snarky, know-it-all comments about how you couldn't possibly be thinking straight.

not sure that kind of response makes sense, tbh. especially when you consider that engineers today are working on stuff that was considered snake oil not so long ago. all i'm saying is that we should stay humble - know the limitations of our knowledge currently, and have an open mind.

i'm not for one second saying that we should not be inquisitive/skeptical of these new, sometimes insanely expensive products that hifi companies want to sell us. but we should also not assume that we know everything there is to know about certain topics, either!

anyways, rant over - feel free to crucify me in the comments for being a heretic!!

 

[CliffyBC]

This thread was inspired by a statement by @CliffyBC in another thread... @AudioPervert 's thread https://forum.wiimhome.com/threads/snake-oil-or-good-upgrade.6845/

ofc nothing personal - was just a really interesting comment that got me thinking!!


really? that simple, huh?

i'm just fascinated by the arrogance in a statement like that... let me explain.

take - for example - "upgrading" speakers. this is something that we can all probably agree - is clearly NOT snake oil. right??

ok, so then you might ask yourself what is it about a particular speaker that makes it better than another??
is it using better parts (e.g. high end poly or foil capacitors vs cheap electrolytic ones) to construct it's crossover??
more exotic materials (beryllium anyone? ) to make the diaphragm of the drivers??
thicker/more inert/heavier construction to reduce cabinet resonances??
some sort of gel suspension system for the whole shebang??

go talk to speaker designers/engineers or read on their websites about what the upgrades are on the newer models vs the older models, and you'll realise that a lot of the specific stuff they mention would be dismissed as snake oil in any other context... for example - many manufacturers proudly tout something like "all internal wiring is cardas copper + high-Ag solder" etc etc. but if anyone asks about upgrading the interconnects in their system - they get snarky, know-it-all comments about how you couldn't possibly be thinking straight.

not sure that kind of response makes sense, tbh. especially when you consider that engineers today are working on stuff that was considered snake oil not so long ago. all i'm saying is that we should stay humble - know the limitations of our knowledge currently, and have an open mind.

i'm not for one second saying that we should not be inquisitive/skeptical of these new, sometimes insanely expensive products that hifi companies want to sell us. but we should also not assume that we know everything there is to know about certain topics, either!

anyways, rant over - feel free to crucify me in the comments for being a heretic!!

It was meant as a joke, no arrogance intended. If my ears were any good I could buy a streamer several times the price of a Wiim and I guess I would be well satisfied. But my ears are pretty ropey so I am perfectly satisfied with my Ultra. I can't see the point of buying a budget item and then spend a fortune just trying to make an incremental improvement at a silly cost. Why not buy a higher quality item to begin with?
But hey, I respect an individuals choice to waste their cash if they feel it's necessary. And I've never done humble, I leave that to the righteous...

 

[Zap Rekowski]

0100110101100001011110010110001001100101001000000111010001101000011001010010000001110001011101010110010101110011011101000110100101101111011011100010000001110111011000010111001100100000011010100111010101110011011101000010000001110100011011110110111100100000011100110111010001110101011100000110100101100100001011100010111000101110

 

[BowsAndArrows]

It was meant as a joke, no arrogance intended. If my ears were any good I could buy a streamer several times the price of a Wiim and I guess I would be well satisfied. But my ears are pretty ropey so I am perfectly satisfied with my Ultra. I can't see the point of buying a budget item and then spend a fortune just trying to make an incremental improvement at a silly cost. Why not buy a higher quality item to begin with?
But hey, I respect an individuals choice to waste their cash if they feel it's necessary. And I've never done humble, I leave that to the righteous...

haha, fair enough!!

and i take your point about why not just buying the higher quality product instead of incrementally improving a "budget" one... however, many of us enjoy the tinkering and the learning. also we maybe cannot afford the high quality product "all at once", and so starting with a cheaper product and then upgrading it over time is more viable.

a good example is power supplies. this is one area where regardless of price range/target market - it makes sense in general to have an external power supply that can be upgraded/replaced if desired or if something breaks...

 

[BowsAndArrows]

0100110101100001011110010110001001100101001000000111010001101000011001010010000001110001011101010110010101110011011101000110100101101111011011100010000001110111011000010111001100100000011010100111010101110011011101000010000001110100011011110110111100100000011100110111010001110101011100000110100101100100001011100010111000101110

nice ASCII

not sure i understand your point tho...

 

[Zap Rekowski]

nice ASCII

not sure i understand your point tho...

Well, loudspeaker construction cannot necessarily be compared with a cable that meets a CAT standard. For example, a cable specified and qualified to CAT 6 in accordance with a defined standard will meet the requirements, regardless of the price. Or in other words: both will transmit the zeros and ones correctly. In this respect, some questions are, in my opinion, simply stupid questions, reason enough to call it “snake oil” here.
But I'm with you on the subject of speaker construction (to a certain extent)

 

[slartibartfast]

This thread was inspired by a statement by @CliffyBC in another thread... @AudioPervert 's thread https://forum.wiimhome.com/threads/snake-oil-or-good-upgrade.6845/

ofc nothing personal - was just a really interesting comment that got me thinking!!


really? that simple, huh?

i'm just fascinated by the arrogance in a statement like that... let me explain.

take - for example - "upgrading" speakers. this is something that we can all probably agree - is clearly NOT snake oil. right??

ok, so then you might ask yourself what is it about a particular speaker that makes it better than another??
is it using better parts (e.g. high end poly or foil capacitors vs cheap electrolytic ones) to construct it's crossover??
more exotic materials (beryllium anyone? ) to make the diaphragm of the drivers??
thicker/more inert/heavier construction to reduce cabinet resonances??
some sort of gel suspension system for the whole shebang??

go talk to speaker designers/engineers or read on their websites about what the upgrades are on the newer models vs the older models, and you'll realise that a lot of the specific stuff they mention would be dismissed as snake oil in any other context... for example - many manufacturers proudly tout something like "all internal wiring is cardas copper + high-Ag solder" etc etc. but if anyone asks about upgrading the interconnects in their system - they get snarky, know-it-all comments about how you couldn't possibly be thinking straight.

not sure that kind of response makes sense, tbh. especially when you consider that engineers today are working on stuff that was considered snake oil not so long ago. all i'm saying is that we should stay humble - know the limitations of our knowledge currently, and have an open mind.

i'm not for one second saying that we should not be inquisitive/skeptical of these new, sometimes insanely expensive products that hifi companies want to sell us. but we should also not assume that we know everything there is to know about certain topics, either!

anyways, rant over - feel free to crucify me in the comments for being a heretic!!

I wouldn't be surprised if speaker manufacturers include elements of snake oil so audiophiles will take them seriously

 

[dangermouse]

0100110101100001011110010110001001100101001000000111010001101000011001010010000001110001011101010110010101110011011101000110100101101111011011100010000001110111011000010111001100100000011010100111010101110011011101000010000001110100011011110110111100100000011100110111010001110101011100000110100101100100001011100010111000101110

I had one too, but the wheel came off.

 

[lostinmusic]

I wouldn't be surprised if speaker manufacturers include elements of snake oil so audiophiles will take them seriously

A generous application of snake oil to my speakers once a week improves the sound and keeps the veneer in good shape.

 

[d6jg]

I don't think you can compare speakers or similar to an ethernet cable.

Clearly there are, or can be, very significant differences across speaker models which will manifest in differing audio. The same simply cannot be said for an ethernet cable. TCP has complex error correction algoritihms which ensure that provided the connecting equipment and cable are properly manufactured network traffic will get delivered. If there is a flaw somewhere then there will be no workable delivery. It is either working or not. As a consequence there is nothing that can be "improved".

The only factor that could possibly be subject of any audiophile debate is electrical noise as a bi product of the physical connection. However this noise, if there is any, cannot be introduced by the cable it would emanate from a piece of equipment at either end. If someone wants to point me at some evidence that electrical noise can be transmitted over ethernet then please do.

 

[BowsAndArrows]

Well, loudspeaker construction cannot necessarily be compared with a cable that meets a CAT standard. For example, a cable specified and qualified to CAT 6 in accordance with a defined standard will meet the requirements, regardless of the price. Or in other words: both will transmit the zeros and ones correctly. In this respect, some questions are, in my opinion, simply stupid questions, reason enough to call it “snake oil” here.
But I'm with you on the subject of speaker construction (to a certain extent)

ah i see. clever way of referring to the previous thread about the ethernet cable. and well, some of us are not 100% sold on the fact that we know everything about digital audio.

nonetheless just apply what i said to analog snake oil, and it still holds true. the point is: inside a speaker some "upgrades" would not be considered snake oil, but outside they would.

 

[BowsAndArrows]

I don't think you can compare speakers or similar to an ethernet cable.

Clearly there are, or can be, very significant differences across speaker models which will manifest in differing audio. The same simply cannot be said for an ethernet cable. TCP has complex error correction algoritihms which ensure that provided the connecting equipment and cable are properly manufactured network traffic will get delivered. If there is a flaw somewhere then there will be no workable delivery. It is either working or not. As a consequence there is nothing that can be "improved".

The only factor that could possibly be subject of any audiophile debate is electrical noise as a bi product of the physical connection. However this noise, if there is any, cannot be introduced by the cable it would emanate from a piece of equipment at either end. If someone wants to point me at some evidence that electrical noise can be transmitted over ethernet then please do.

i take your point about the digital side of things. the point of this thread wasn't specifically about the ethernet cable, although a post in that thread sparked this one... the point is that in one case x = snake oil, in another it's not. just take any of the speaker "upgrades" and talk about doing the same to something other than a speaker. e.g. a capacitor upgrade in the crossover of your speaker vs capacitor upgrade in any other component...

but since you asked, there is some evidence of noise being transmitted specifically over ethernet. see work done by ethernet-sound.com, alpha audio - who compared 7 ethernet cables, and the now imfamous whitepaper by John Swenson of Uptone Audio as examples.

I'm not saying i am 100% on one side or the other... just have an open mind, and taking in all points of view + combining it with my own experiences...

 

[dominikz]

nonetheless just apply what i said to analog snake oil, and it still holds true. the point is: inside a speaker some "upgrades" would not be considered snake oil, but outside they would.

That depends on who you talk to. To be honest, upgrades of speakers with boutique cables and super-expensive passive components would also be considered "snake oil" by most electrical engineers specializing in audio.
Loudspeaker performance is mainly determined by loudspeaker driver selection, cabinet design and the crossover circuit - not by the tiny bit of wire inside it.
Unfortunately "snake oil" marketing makes a lot of money in this industry and many manufacturers benefit from it financially so there's not a lot of incentive to educate consumers. So for a typical consumer sadly it is often really difficult to differentiate fact from fiction. We're simply bombarded by false claims from every direction and many of them have been repeated for so long that they're simply accepted as common knowledge and therefore "truth".

I agree it is important to keep an open mind, but that doesn't mean that every claim automatically has merit.

 

[Pragmatist]

 

[BowsAndArrows]

That depends on who you talk to. To be honest, upgrades of speakers with boutique cables and super-expensive passive components would also be considered "snake oil" by most electrical engineers specializing in audio.
Loudspeaker performance is mainly determined by loudspeaker driver selection, cabinet design and the crossover circuit - not by the tiny bit of wire inside it.
Unfortunately "snake oil" marketing makes a lot of money in this industry and many manufacturers benefit from it financially so there's not a lot of incentive to educate consumers. So for a typical consumer sadly it is often really difficult to differentiate fact from fiction. We're simply bombarded by false claims from every direction and many of them have been repeated for so long that they're simply accepted as common knowledge and therefore "truth".

I agree it is important to keep an open mind, but that doesn't mean that every claim automatically has merit.

we found some common ground!! I agree not every claim has merit. but this hobby has a habit/tendency of just forgetting that many people were dismissive of stuff that we call real progress now... in other words, it can be popular to call something snake oil as a reflex in the hobby when we don't understand something, but over time, if it's proven to NOT be snake oil - then hardly anyone ever corrects themselves, or clarifies exactly why it's NOT considered snake oil anymore...

did you read the first post in the thread though? all those things you mentioned about what determines loudspeaker performance - i also mentioned in the first post of this thread... the point is WHAT, specifically about these factors makes one "better".... it's not about anything specific. you chose to focus on cables which many do because they already have preconceived notions about them. there is a LOT of wiring in speakers, btw, not a "tiny amount" - esp if using air-core inductors etc...

but we can have the same/similar discussion about anything you consider NOT snake oil:

e.g. when you say "driver selection" - what exactly about a particular driver makes it better?? using a more exotic material like beryllium in constructing the diaphragm?? employing better wiring in construction??
similarly "crossover circuit" - what exactly? replacing an electrolytic capacitor with a fancy foil one?? using air-core inductors vs iron-core?? if i suggested that in my streamer or amplifier - would people not come out and scream SNAKE OIL??!
"cabinet design" - this one clearly is more of an art that involves trial + error. and tbh there is much less in the way of OBJECTIVE, absolute principles in this area... and it's evolving quite a bit

my point is that when you go and examine the incremental upgrades occurring at the bleeding edge of Hi-Fi engineering with a microscope, regardless of the component (speaker, digital, analogue), you'll find someone out there screaming snake oil. often without much basis for doing so...

 

[Pragmatist]

 

[dominikz]

e.g. when you say "driver selection" - what exactly about a particular driver makes it better?? using a more exotic material like beryllium in constructing the diaphragm?? employing better wiring in construction??
similarly "crossover circuit" - what exactly? replacing an electrolytic capacitor with a fancy foil one?? using air-core inductors vs iron-core?? if i suggested that in my streamer or amplifier - would people not come out and scream SNAKE OIL??!
"cabinet design" - this one clearly is more of an art that involves trial + error. and tbh there is much less in the way of OBJECTIVE, absolute principles in this area... and it's evolving quite a bit

IMHO engineering of anything (including audio systems) is rarely as simple as choosing a "better" component or a "better" material.
Engineering is a practice of balancing various requirements and characteristics to achieve a desired outcome. In practice this can often be done with regular off-the shelf parts and some good engineering skills.

However, paying for "premium" components should not necessarily be equated with "snake oil". Even in case where there are not meaningful audible differences, people may still prefer to buy items they feel are more premium or luxurious.
Personally I have no issue with that at all - people should be free to buy and enjoy whatever they like.

I only have issues with manufacturers that claim their expensive boutique implementation of <insert audio device> is superior to any other due to <insert reason conflicting with existing body of research>, without providing any robust formal evidence of their own. IMHO this is the real danger for us as consumers, not really the people that are on the opposite side of the spectrum that yell "snake oil!" to anything new.

my point is that when you go and examine the incremental upgrades occurring at the bleeding edge of Hi-Fi engineering with a microscope, regardless of the component (speaker, digital, analogue), you'll find someone out there screaming snake oil. often without much basis for doing so...

To be honest, there are people on both sides of the spectrum that are automatically dismissive. It is a typical human thing to do.

In the end I'll freely admit that if someone tries to sell me something expensive which is solving a non-evident problem, I'll be quite cautious and probably ask for pretty robust evidence before I open my wallet.

BTW I did read the first post. Sorry if my response seemed too selective!

 

[Toad]

Not everything can be 'Improved', some things are simply doing the job correctly and there's absolutely no way they can do it better. An Ethernet cable is a great example of that:

If you already have an Ethernet cable that is of reasonable quality and in good condition, it's going to carry the data faithfully and there's absolutely no improvement one can make.. absolutely none. Jitter you say? It's irrelevant on Ethernet, the audio clock is not derived from the Ethernet signal timing. So, "High End" audio Ethernet cables are a ripoff, it's a technical fact and no amount of it and or but will change that fact.

The problem here is not the cable it's the lack of knowledge of the user.

When it comes to speakers, it's analog and there's a lot more wiggle room for doubt, especially as speaker design is something that takes years to master and it's not easy for a consumer to get their head around what exactly are the real problems that make a difference and what aren't... But generally speaking the brand of wires within the cabinet, or pricey connectors.. for example.. aren't a big contributor to the sound. Things like phase matching.. that's affected by driver selection, crossover design, etc.. that makes big differences in what you hear.

So when someone tells you this one's better because it's beryllium, etc you have to ask yourself, if beryllium automatically makes it sound the best then wouldn't everyone just automatically use it all the time??? If carbon fiber was automatically better sounding wouldn't everyone use it all the time?? If a certain brand of driver was superior then wouldn't all the top designers of speakers know that and use it? You have to apply some common sense in these situations...

Soeaker design isn't like that. The drivers have to perform well individually but they more importantly have to perform well together and that's a much trickier proposition as is designing a good crossover. It's not about exotic materials (which is what customers pay attention to) as much as it's about smart engineering (which customers mostly don't understand).

A speaker designer could slightly adjust the value of a $2 capacitor in the crossover of their speaker and make more difference in the sound than you ever could with even the most expensive wires in the world. I don't mean replace it with a higher end capacitor, I just mean the exact same brand capacitor but adjust the capacitance.

You could move the speaker a few inches one direction or another, or tilt it a few degrees, and make a noticeable change in the sound. You could place it on a different wall and make a vast difference....

So improvement in sound fidelity is not directly correlated to how many "upgrades" you apply. Even the speaker with the upgraded driver may not sound automatically better in every way than the old model.. it may just sound different: Better in some ways worse in others.

 

[slartibartfast]

Can anyone hear a difference between OFC speaker cables and the same design without OFC

 

[Pragmatist]