Indepedent PEQ bands for SUB OUT and setting different crossover at sub out page for mains only (subs have internal amps)

[jdjd1]

So I was tuning my system and I noticed my speakers are actually good from 60 to 120 hz where the sub is good but it has some dips which can't be fixed due to room.

So I bypassed speakers and subwoofer in sub out page and use internal subwoofer amp for its crossover and the 3 peq bands it has. then I went onto the LEFT and RIGHT speakers individually, so I could EQ them , but I also had to use the first PEQ bands of LEFT and RIGHT to EQ SUB cause I really needed 6 bands for Subwoofer.

Problem:

EQ for subwoofer is affecting speakers, and EQ for speakers is affecting Subwoofer.

Please give us seperate PEQ bands for SUB OUT.

and if possible since we can bypass either speaker or sub or both also give the opurtunity to set crossover in sub out page for subwoofer and speakers individually.

ps: although I did notice EQ is sometimes not applied unless a reboot in wiim is done.


Best regards and thank you for the amazing device that wiim ultra is.

 

[jdjd1]

Ok I'm sorry I forgot left + right already has LP and HP to set (if bypassing mains in sub out page) so all that is required is really PEQ bands exclusively for subwoofer.

 

[Wiimer]

Ok I'm sorry I forgot left + right already has LP and HP to set (if bypassing mains in sub out page) so all that is required is really PEQ bands exclusively for subwoofer.

I believe if you set LP and HP on one crosspoint you will get very little sound. (Sorry if I misunderstood your post.)

 

[jdjd1]

I believe if you set LP and HP on one crosspoint you will get very little sound. (Sorry if I misunderstood your post.)

Yes for now it would also apply to sub, since it is a summation of LEFT + RIGHT, however if we get exclusive PEQ bands for SUB OUT, then you can make LP or HP using the PEQ bands for every channel individually if you would like (LEFT+RIGHT+SUBWOOFER) in combination with the sub out page bypass options. Since different Q's in HP or LP already make different kind of crossovers like BU2 needs a Q of 0.707 however a Q of 0.71 should be a close approximation.

 

[harkpabst]

EQ for subwoofer is affecting speakers, and EQ for speakers is affecting Subwoofer.

How is it going to affect each other unless you explicitly enable either "Subwoofer Bypass Mode" or "Main Speakers Output Bass"?

RoomFit attempts to cure room problems, no matter if the output comes from the main speakers, the subwoofer(s) or both. If the sub brings its own room correction setup and you want to use that you can simply increase the lower frequency limit for RoomFit.

 

[jdjd1]

How is it going to affect each other unless you explicitly enable either "Subwoofer Bypass Mode" or "Main Speakers Output Bass"?

RoomFit attempts to cure room problems, no matter if the output comes from the main speakers, the subwoofer(s) or both. If the sub brings its own room correction setup and you want to use that you can simply increase the lower frequency limit for RoomFit.

maybe some of us like REW?

 

[jdjd1]

How is it going to affect each other unless you explicitly enable either "Subwoofer Bypass Mode" or "Main Speakers Output Bass"?

RoomFit attempts to cure room problems, no matter if the output comes from the main speakers, the subwoofer(s) or both. If the sub brings its own room correction setup and you want to use that you can simply increase the lower frequency limit for RoomFit.

I don't understand what is their to be agaisn't separating the EQ from SUB OUT from the L/R PEQ it makes total sense, for example imagine you have a dip at xover point in right channel and not in left channel and also not in subwoofer, if you do anything to that frequency with a PEQ band at Right channel YOU WILL AFFECT THE SUBWOOFER at same time. If you want a proper independent house curve for subwoofer and main speaker (bass limited speakers) (for proper summation) you can't be affecting subwoofer after the crossover point or main speakers before the crossover point or vice-versa. if people want to affect the whole system they can just use PEQ STEREO, now IF one wants to use L/R PEQ properly the sub out needs to be seperated from it. also 5 or 10 channels more for sub would be delightful.

Today I had to make sure from the 13 (23) peq bands I used, (10 per channel (L/R) for wiim ultra, plus 3 from sub internal amp), which led me to having 6 PEQ bands on L+R peq channels for sub, making sure they only affect until 60 hz or else I would influence too much the main speakers, and then the last 3 out of 9 I used for subwoofer went to the internal amp since they were too close or after crossover point and would affect main speakers (sub has a huge bump at 140 hz which since sub and main speakers are crossed at 90 hertz WOULD affect the main speakers in a place I can't afford it).

the remaining 4 PEQ bands per channel (L+R) where dedicated to each L and R speaker so out fo 20 PEQ BANDS 12 were used for subwoofer and only 4 for Right channel and 4 for Left channel, which is severely limiting.

But what is most annoying about this is the fact that you can't really do anything near crossover point because it will affect either L or Right + Subwoofer.

thanks and best regards.

EDIT: PS: I'm not using bypass anymore and I'm using Sub Out page crossover.

 

[jdjd1]

Also without indepent sub out PEQ BANDS if I want to use HP in MAIN SPEAKERS L/R PEQ BANDS it will affect SUBWOOFER, which renders it impossible to use them, also makes bypass mode in sub out page rather useless.

 

[jdjd1]

Here is a visual of the PEQ bands I've reached, 3 of the sub went to internal sub amp so as not to disturb main speakers PEQ bands (L/R) and because I needed more bands

 

[jdjd1]

and here is how they are in wiim L/R PEQ BANDS and wiim sub out page and also a picture of the PEQ bands that went into the sub internal amp.

 

[slartibartfast]

How is it going to affect each other unless you explicitly enable either "Subwoofer Bypass Mode" or "Main Speakers Output Bass"?

RoomFit attempts to cure room problems, no matter if the output comes from the main speakers, the subwoofer(s) or both. If the sub brings its own room correction setup and you want to use that you can simply increase the lower frequency limit for RoomFit.

I am surprised nobody has mentioned the most obvious difference separate subwoofer EQ would bring. Currently using individual channel EQ for RoomFit results in increased bass due to correlated signals at low frequencies. If the subwoofer was adjusted separately that wouldn't be the case. Of course it has been said previously that the target curves are meant to be used for a single speaker so the the increased bass with two speakers is the correct response. If that is the case then simply taking all three speakers separately (L, R and sub) and correcting them to match the target curve wouldn't always work since the L and R speaker output above the sub crossover frequency could still be correlated and increase the combined output at those frequencies. The effect would be worse at lower crossover frequencies.

 

[dominikz]

I am surprised nobody has mentioned the most obvious difference separate subwoofer EQ would bring. Currently using individual channel EQ for RoomFit results in increased bass due to correlated signals at low frequencies. If the subwoofer was adjusted separately that wouldn't be the case. Of course it has been said previously that the target curves are meant to be used for a single speaker so the the increased bass with two speakers is the correct response. If that is the case then simply taking all three speakers separately (L, R and sub) and correcting them to match the target curve wouldn't always work since the L and R speaker output above the sub crossover frequency could still be correlated and increase the combined output at those frequencies. The effect would be worse at lower crossover frequencies.

This is an insightful point you raise, but note that even if the sub was EQed separately you'd still be able to get the equivalent response you get today.

The trick is that the sub output is mono, so with stereo content the sub channel will play a sum of L and R channels.
That means that if you play only one channel (e.g. L) the sub output level will be -6dB lower compared to if you play both channels.
Given that equal-level coherent sources (e.g. low frequency playback in small rooms) also sum acoustically as +6dB this means that the same relative sub level is preserved between stereo and individual channel playback as today.

But one thing that would indeed change is that we would need to start taking much more care to ensure that the target level for the sub channel is well aligned to the target level for the individual channels. So IMHO this might bring a bit more complexity for the user, depending on how WiiM would implement the functionality in RoomFit.

As mentioned before, IMHO very similar results can be achieved with the current implementation (where the sub channel has no dedicated EQ), as they could if we had dedicated EQ for the sub - assuming one is willing to adapt their approach to EQ accordingly.

So I'm personally not against this change, but at the moment I also don't see it as something really necessary. Others may feel differently, of course.

 

[harkpabst]

maybe some of us like REW?

I surely do but I don't see how this is related.

I don't understand what is their to be agaisn't separating the EQ from SUB OUT from the L/R PEQ ...

You are proposing a change, so I'm just trying to understand why you think this change would be beneficial. I don't have to explain why I'm asking. You have to explain why it is a worthwhile change.

... for example imagine you have a dip at xover point in right channel and not in left channel and also not in subwoofer, if you do anything to that frequency with a PEQ band at Right channel YOU WILL AFFECT THE SUBWOOFER at same time.

This is exactly the only case (a dip r a peak exactly at the crossover frequency) where the combined right channel PEQ filter would definitely influence the subwoofer output.

We currently have a fixed LR4 high pass and low pass filter in WiiM's subwoofer management. Half an octave below the crossover frequency and a high Q peak filter will typically have almost no influence on the mains, half an octave above the crossover frequency and the same goes for the opposite direction. If you purposefully apply low Q filters these will affect the overall sound balance of course. And why shouldn't it?

If you want a proper independent house curve for subwoofer and main speaker (bass limited speakers) (for proper summation) you can't be affecting subwoofer after the crossover point or main speakers before the crossover point or vice-versa. if people want to affect the whole system they can just use PEQ STEREO, ...

Actually no, I don't want an independent house curve for sub and mains. Why should I? If anything I want a smooth overall frequency response and there are several ways to achieve this. Once again, a peak filter at e.g. 32 Hz won't affect the mains at all if the crossover frequency is set to e.g. 90 Hz.

... now IF one wants to use L/R PEQ properly the sub out needs to be seperated from it. also 5 or 10 channels more for sub would be delightful.

That's a repetition of your claim but still no technical explanation.

But maybe let's just stop the discussion here, because I see a point where we might still come to an agreement:

If the request was to just add e.g. an additional 5 band PEQ to the subwoofer output then I'd say, hey, why not? This is strictly for those manually tinkering with PEQ so there's absolutely no reason to be overly restrictive with the frequency limits. Just allow anything from 10 Hz to 250 Hz (currently the highest crossover frequency for the sub). It's the user's responsibility to distribute the filters in the way they want it. No automatic changes to the PEQ just because the crossover frequency is changed. I'm fine with that.

As per your other request (independent crossover frequencies for HP and LP): This has been requested before by rather few individuals, obviously not enough to make WiiM consider this. I'm not against it, as long as the default is the linked behaviour we have right now and breaking this link is hidden away in some "advanced settings" menu. So the casual user doesn't play around with it too much.

I'm also not against additional filter slopes and characteristics (although LR4 is a very good default choice). Just, again, hide it away so the average Joe doesn't see it.

 

[jdjd1]

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We currently have a fixed LR4 high pass and low pass filter in WiiM's subwoofer management. Half an octave below the crossover frequency and a high Q peak filter will typically have almost no influence on the mains, half an octave above the crossover frequency and the same goes for the opposite direction. If you purposefully apply low Q filters these will affect the overall sound balance of course. And why shouldn't it?

as you can see in my "RIGHt PEQ.png" and "LEFT PEQ xo at 90 hz.png" this claim isn't that straightforward, as you can see both my L+R speakers have a massive BUMP at 62 HZ and so does my sub however it has a dip at 67 hz which is worsened by reducing the bump at 62 hz (becomes a bigger dip which REW tries to correct for) but by bumping the 67 hz for Subwoofer I'm Worsenning even more the bump at 62 hz for L+R.

Which causes a BIG boost at 62 hz for all channels which should be the subwoofer region. As you can see from pictures the L+R house curve is seriously disturbed and without seperate PEQ for sub + L+R there is no way I can fix that.

 

[harkpabst]

Sorry, I don't see a file named "LEFT PEQ.jpg" or a file named "RIGHt PEQ.jpg". I do see a file named "RIGHT PEQ.png" but I don't see a reference to to 67 Hz there.

Naturally, peak filters very close in centre frequency can potentially influence each other. That's the same in every frequency range and just a matter of choosing the right Q factor. If needed filters are on separate outputs (like sub or mains) or not is just a matter of coincidence.

 

[jdjd1]

Sorry, I don't see a file named "LEFT PEQ.jpg" or a file named "RIGHt PEQ.jpg". I do see a file named "RIGHT PEQ.png" but I don't see a reference to to 67 Hz there.

Naturally, peak filters very close in centre frequency can potentially influence each other. That's the same in every frequency range and just a matter of choosing the right Q factor. If needed filters are on separate outputs (like sub or mains) or not is just a matter of coincidence.

I corrected the post above to reflect the proper names didn't notice it was .png instead of .jpg

 

[harkpabst]

I still don't know what pictures you're referring to. You posted quite a number of them and without your explanation I still don't get what cannot be done with the current software.

 

[slartibartfast]

I still don't know what pictures you're referring to. You posted quite a number of them and without your explanation I still don't get what cannot be done with the current software.

I get the impression that because he has used REW to measure the sub separately from the left and right speakers he can't translate the REW filters directly to the WiiM. Of course if he measured Left + sub and Right + sub he could copy them into WiiM.

 

[jdjd1]

I still don't know what pictures you're referring to. You posted quite a number of them and without your explanation I still don't get what cannot be done with the current software.

My bad, as you can see from the picture below "Right PEQ.png" I have a humongous BUMP at 62 hz in right channel (right speaker), sub also has a BUMP at 64 hz as seen in "SUB PEQ.png" but left channel doesn't have as much of a BUMPat 60hz but it has one at 70 hz and follows (bass limited speakers house curve a bit better at 60 hz until it reaches 70 hz), my sub out page crossover is at 90 hz I need to tame the peak at 64 hertz in subwoofer and tame the right channel bump at 62 hz and left channel bump at 70 hz, however applying EQ to left or right will affect the subwoofer, and not having a subwoofer independent PEQ bands affects it if i try and tame the LEFT or RIGHT speakers before crossover region and even after crossover region applying EQ to LEFT or RIGHT affects subwoofer after crossover and the subwoofer should ideally follow subwoofer house curve. While left and right should follow their house curve so they properly sum.

Another example imagine I want to cross subwoofer at 90 hertz however use bypass main speakers so they fill the dips of subwoofer caused by its position, if I eq Left or Right I will also inadvertely affect subwoofer, and without having subwoofer independent eq bands I cant use this method as if I want to tame for example just subwoofer at one point and not left and right speaker I can't.

Best regards

 

[jdjd1]

I get the impression that because he has used REW to measure the sub separately from the left and right speakers he can't translate the REW filters directly to the WiiM. Of course if he measured Left + sub and Right + sub he could copy them into WiiM.

Yes and no, if I eq Left and subwoofer together up to crossover it will ruin their independent house curves. And imagine I want to bump left speaker at one point say 70 hertz but at the same time reduce subwoofer at that point (70 hz), it's impossible without subwoofer independent PEQ bands.