Is no XLR out on ultra a dealbreaker for using amps with xlr in option?

[druskys]

This is probably a series of eye roll questions and I’m sorry in advance… still learning the ropes in audio world!

I used to have a wiim pro plus connected to my topping e70 velvet Dac via coslink and then from there to my active desktop speakers (kali l6, v2) using xlr cables. I loved the sound. When I instead used rca to xlr cables directly from the wiim, I didn’t like the sound as much. I couldn’t do a perfect A/B comparison so I fully acknowledge the lack of a full proof test this was… that being said, I could have sworn I heard more openness/lightness with the xlr cables and the external Dac (I know some of you are rolling your eyes already and I don’t disagree haha). Was I just tricking myself here and not actually hearing anything different? My undergrad was in music, so I have a good ear, but I don’t think it’s “that” good…

For my current setup (bmr monitors from philharmonic audio with a Rythmik sub and WiiM amp), I’m very interested in implementing the Wiim ultra with Fosi v3 monoblocks. The wiim doesn’t have xlr out (as has been discussed) but the Fosi has xlr in. Per Amir at ASR, the Fosi looks to have a bit more noise when using rca (many would say it’s proved to be outside of being audible though—I don’t disagree).

sorry for the long prologue, but here are my questions:

1. Per what we know so far from specs, will I hear any difference moving on from the wiim amp to the (a) wiim ultra with Fosi mono amp or (b) wiim amp pro?

2. Will I hear any difference between (a) using rca cables with a wiim ultra with Fosi mono amps and (b) using a WiiM pro plus to topping e70 velvet to Fosi mono amps using xlr?

3. Will the mono blocks really add anything over my WiiM amp or is all of the cross talk inaudible?

 

[lednek]

It's a deal breaker for me, as it is the one thing that would make the upgrade worth while. XLR is unlikely to give a significant sound quality improvement, in fact it could be inaudible. It does tend to net better measurements. I have not had audible interference in any of my RCA single ended output set ups, xlr could in theory mitigate them(if it was there) The biggest advantage of XLR output in my opinion, is the voltage is doubled(typically a 4V Signal as opposed to 2V or less) This allows for a lower gain stage, as you've doubled the voltage at the DAC,

I would buy the Ultra in a heartbeat and use it as a one stop pre-amp/Dac/streamer. The high/low pass filter is a huge benefit and makes this tempting.

 

[jed1]

It is a deal breaker for me, too. I was thinking about Ultra before deciding WiiM model to buy. As soon as I saw WiiM Ultra's real panel on picture (lack of balanced outputs), I went ahead and bough Pro Plus and SMSL DO100 Pro (to use with Kali IN-8 V2 and WS6.2). It costs more than WiiM Ultra but I don't want to deal with interference with unbalanced connection. Even with fully balanced signal chain, I make sure everything shares a same ground through a single power filter.

In my opinion, modern audio equipments are really good in terms of bench test results with ideal conditions. Majority of DACs out there already exceed human hearing's dynamic range as well as recording dynamic range. But, in real world, that's not the case. Noises determine sound quality. So, that's why I stick with balanced connections from start to end.

 

[lednek]

It is a deal breaker for me, too. I was thinking about Ultra before deciding WiiM model to buy. As soon as I saw WiiM Ultra's real panel on picture (lack of balanced outputs), I went ahead and bough Pro Plus and SMSL DO100 Pro (to use with Kali IN-8 V2 and WS6.2). It costs more than WiiM Ultra but I don't want to deal with interference with unbalanced connection. Even with fully balanced signal chain, I make sure everything shares a same ground through a single power filter.

In my opinion, modern audio equipments are really good in terms of bench test results with ideal conditions. Majority of DACs out there already exceed human hearing's dynamic range as well as recording dynamic range. But, in real world, that's not the case. Noises determine sound quality. So, that's why I stick with balanced connections from start to end.

I bought a pro plus for my garage system, havnt tried it yet. Just running the pro for my theater and 2 channel system. What made you go for the pro plus if your using an external DAC? I did buy the same DAC(D0100) fwiw. I like it a lot!

 

[rccarguy]

If it did have XLR out it'll just be fake balanced, just unbalanced over XLR connector, which fair enough is cool that it locks into place etc. But it's not fully balanced.

 

[alpha_zulu]

If it did have XLR out it'll just be fake balanced, just unbalanced over XLR connector, which fair enough is cool that it locks into place etc. But it's not fully balanced.

Why?

 

[rccarguy]

Why?

Because fully balanced requires more electronics, buffer boards etc. Most AV gear with XLR is just fake balanced. ie my Tonewinner AT300 has XLR out, but it won't be fully balanced.

ATI 6007 power amplifier is fully balanced though.

 

[druskys]

So if I used an rca to xlr cable, would I get 4 or 2 volts?

If it’s not fully balanced even I did use full xlr, is the lower noise (higher sinad) measurement due to higher voltage?

 

[jed1]

I bought a pro plus for my garage system, havnt tried it yet. Just running the pro for my theater and 2 channel system. What made you go for the pro plus if your using an external DAC? I did buy the same DAC(D0100) fwiw. I like it a lot!

I was also considering WiiM Pro (WiiM Mini is out of question due to lack of Chromecast). But, I bought WiiM Pro Plus as a back up for my external DAC in case it's not working.

 

[lednek]

So if I used an rca to xlr cable, would I get 4 or 2 volts?

If it’s not fully balanced even I did use full xlr, is the lower noise (higher sinad) measurement due to higher voltage?

You would get 2V. Balanced, or more accurately a differential Balance signal works by simultaneously producing the same signal 180 degrees out of phase at a negative voltage, the amplifier plays the difference between the two signals. The peak of the +2v signal and the trough of the -2v signal are aligned, the voltage difference is 4v. Any interference will not have a differential signal and as such will be ignored by the amplifier.

 

[druskys]

You would get 2V. Balanced, or more accurately a differential Balance signal works by simultaneously producing the same signal 180 degrees out of phase at a negative voltage, the amplifier plays the difference between the two signals. The peak of the +2v signal and the trough of the -2v signal are aligned, the voltage difference is 4v. Any interference will not have a differential signal and as such will be ignored by the amplifier.

Ah okay, thanks for the explanation. Seems it’s not very beneficial to have rca to xlr over just straight rca. Was hoping there was a workaround haha

 

[harkpabst]

You would get 2V. Balanced, or more accurately a differential Balance signal works by simultaneously producing the same signal 180 degrees out of phase at a negative voltage, the amplifier plays the difference between the two signals. The peak of the +2v signal and the trough of the -2v signal are aligned, the voltage difference is 4v. Any interference will not have a differential signal and as such will be ignored by the amplifier.

When connecting a differential output stage to a non-balanced RCA input, then you would end up with 4 V, though. With a typical adapter, the shield and -Ve are connected at one end, so the difference in potential is 4 V.

If the input can be overdriven by this voltage (not too unlikely in most cases) an additional voltage divider was needed.

 

[lednek]

When connecting a differential output stage to a non-balanced RCA input, then you would end up with 4 V, though. With a typical adapter, the shield and -Ve are connected at one end, so the difference in potential is 4 V.

If the input can be overdriven by this voltage (not too unlikely in most cases) an additional voltage divider was needed.

I don't see how this is possible. You are connecting the common and hot(+v) leads, correct? The higher 4v signal is the net between + and -. Can you help me understand how it would net 4v with just on of the otherwise differential leads?

 

[druskys]

It is a deal breaker for me, too. I was thinking about Ultra before deciding WiiM model to buy. As soon as I saw WiiM Ultra's real panel on picture (lack of balanced outputs), I went ahead and bough Pro Plus and SMSL DO100 Pro (to use with Kali IN-8 V2 and WS6.2). It costs more than WiiM Ultra but I don't want to deal with interference with unbalanced connection. Even with fully balanced signal chain, I make sure everything shares a same ground through a single power filter.

In my opinion, modern audio equipments are really good in terms of bench test results with ideal conditions. Majority of DACs out there already exceed human hearing's dynamic range as well as recording dynamic range. But, in real world, that's not the case. Noises determine sound quality. So, that's why I stick with balanced connections from start to end.

How is the SMSL DO100 Pro? Am thinking I may go a similar route

 

[jed1]

How is the SMSL DO100 Pro? Am thinking I may go a similar route

I originally considered the following DAC;

SMSL DL200 (DAC/Headphone amp, single ES9039Q2M)
SMSL DO400 (DAC/Headphone amp, single ES9039MPRO)
SMSL D6S (DAC, single ES9039Q2M)
SMDL D100PRO (DAC, dual ES9039Q2M)
Topping D50 III (DAC, dual ES9039Q2M)

My selection criteria includes;

Must's:

• $500 or less
• Latest ESS DAC chip
• Latest XMOS chip
• Toslink input
• Balanced output
• Built-in power supply (no wall wart)

Nice-to-have's or not to be considered:

• MQA
• Heaphone amp
• HDMI ARC
• DSP / EQ

I was about to go with SMSL D6S based on ASR review, which approaches to the end game DAC. I soon found DO100 Pro, which costs the same but has dual ES9039Q2M, more OP amp chips, and HDMI ARC. Then I also found Topping D50III with dual ES9039Q2M at the same price range. But, Topping D50III requires an external USB-C power supply and has TRS connections instead of XLR. XLR is more mechanically robust (I know for sure based on my experience. If I step on XLR Neutrik connectors, I would not worry about damaging the connector) and less likely to cause pops when plugging / unplugging compared to TRS.

Compared to a single ES9039MPRO with 8 cores, dual ES9039Q2M's have total 4 cores. But, SMSL DO400 costs twice SMSL DO100 Pro.

The biggest con is its output voltage at 5Vrms (balanced). It's too hot for my active speakers and subwoofer. I lowered the gain so that 75% volume on DO100 Pro is at the comfortable listening level.

How does it sound? I feel stereo imaging is good (channel separation) and clarity (no fuzziness) is excellent. Do I need to upgrade soon or later? Unlikely. I may upgrade speakers (from Kali to Focal? but too early) before the DAC.

 

[druskys]

Awesome, thanks for laying out your thought process and presenting several options. I’m trying to do some more reading to see if I can get comfortable with the wiim ultra/fosi monoblock pairing (this audio world with all the numbers gets confusing haha). If I don’t get there, I am leaning towards the DAC you got with something like a wiim mini (I really like the wiim platform so I want to make it work). Just gets clunky because then I need a way to bring in the sub… might get expensive quick!

 

[harkpabst]

I don't see how this is possible. You are connecting the common and hot(+v) leads, correct? The higher 4v signal is the net between + and -. Can you help me understand how it would net 4v with just on of the otherwise differential leads?

If you leave pin 3 floating (not connected), then the output will be limited to 2 V, of course. This is the recommended method only if the output stage is neither cross-coupled nor using a transformer.

Most adapters or adapter cables will short pins 1 and 3 and this is the preferred configuration for freely floating output voltages. In this case the shield is at the same potential as -Ve. Consequently the voltage between the RCA center pin and the outer contact will still be 4 V.

The following article doesn't do that math, but contains lots of wiring diagrams and shows when and why to use them:

RANE Commercial - Knowledge Base

Rane Commercial

www.ranecommercial.com

 

[bherren]

If it did have XLR out it'll just be fake balanced, just unbalanced over XLR connector, which fair enough is cool that it locks into place etc. But it's not fully balanced.

I doubt that. All those "cheap" topping/SMSL balanced DACs output 4V which is generally a sign of a real balanced output. I think you are confused by old school discrete amps or preamps that used to indeed require a lot more electronic. Not so much these days

The output of the WiiM is basically the output of a DAC chip which is real balanced, I believe. I don't know for sure but I assume there's an output driver circuit after that with an op-amp but I doubt this is a complex / expensive circuit...

I wouldn't be surprised if the BOM cost of the XLR connectors themselves dwarfs the components cost of the extra output circuitry

 

[lednek]

If you leave pin 3 floating (not connected), then the output will be limited to 2 V, of course. This is the recommended method only if the output stage is neither cross-coupled nor using a transformer.

Most adapters or adapter cables will short pins 1 and 3 and this is the preferred configuration for freely floating output voltages. In this case the shield is at the same potential as -Ve. Consequently the voltage between the RCA center pin and the outer contact will still be 4 V.

The following article doesn't do that math, but contains lots of wiring diagrams and shows when and why to use them:

RANE Commercial - Knowledge Base

Rane Commercial

www.ranecommercial.com

Thank you so much! Great article, and I appreciate you helping me understand better.

 

[dtc]

It is important to differentiate between a fully balanced signal path throughout a device (balanced signal) and a balanced cable.

A "fully balanced" piece of equipment indeed carries the two signals (in-phase and inverted) throughout the whole signal path and this can require a lot for electronics, especially for an analog input. That tends to be expensive gear.

However, you can take a signal ended signal and invert it just for output and send a balanced signal to the output connectors. From the cable perspective, that is a balanced signal, even though it came from a device that is not fully balanced. As far as the receiving electronics knows it is a balanced input signal and will be treated as such.

Now, some devices have balanced inputs but have single ended circuits. That means the common mode rejection is used for the signal as it comes in, but their is no common mode rejection within the rest of the signal path. So, a non-balanced device can produce a balanced signal for output and it can receive a balanced signal as input, with a relatively small amount of electronics.

There are a lot of devices that have balanced inputs and outputs do so as to use common mode rejection for the signal as it passes through the cable, but are themselves not balanced internally.

As an example, a microphone uses a balanced cable to remove interference in a noisy electrical environment, and the amp that receives that data often combines the two signal. But the amp uses an un-balanced signal through the amp, since stray electrical signals are less likely to interfere with the amp than they are with the low level mic signal.

Of course, to take advanced of the balanced signal on the cable, the sending device needs to actually send two singles out of phase and the receiving device has to actually combine the two signals and not just pick up one of them and use that.