Line-in quality issues with turntable

[wilxuk]

Hi everyone! I’m new to Wiim and new to the forum and wondered if anyone had any experience with this particular issue I’m having…

I bought the Wiim Pro Plus recently as a dedicated solution for expanding my turntable across my network. I went with Wiim based on the great reviews and the Pro Plus specifically because of the high-spec ADC.

I have a mid-high-end Roksan Attessa turntable with a built in phono pre-amp. I've tried a few different configurations, but the resulting sound quality when paired with the Wiimis unexpectedly poor. There is very little clarity, particularly in the mid and low frequencies, and there's an overbearing crackle/static that takes over when certain frequencies play, resulting in an unlistenable experience.

I’ve been in touch with Wiim about this and with nothing showing in the log, they suspected a faulty ADC (which I also suspected). However, the replacement unit is doing the exact same thing. Here‘a a few details for wider context:

1. The turntable works perfectly – when wired directly into my speakers, the sound quality is perfect, so there’s no obvious issue here.
2. The cables are in good working order. I've tried 3 different line-in connects between the turntable and the Wiim – all brand new. The same cables work fine when I bi-pass the Wiim as well.
3. I have a high-speed home network
4. My networked/bluetooth speakers work perfectly, and also work perfectly with the Wiim when playing Spotify over Airplay or Bluetooth. The issue seems to occur when the source is line-in and the ADC comes into play.
5. I experience the poor sound issue in multiple scenarios when using the Wiim and line-in is the source:
   1. When airplaying to high-quality Naim speakers
   2. When using my Naim speakers as Bluetooth receiver
   3. Even when hardwiring into my speakers via line-out on the Wiim
   4. These scenarios suggest that issue might lie with the signal processing
6. In addition, I've tried adjusting the line-in sample rates from low to high, which didn't make a difference.

My primary use-case is to play my turntable over Airplay (which the Wiim is absolutely ideal for on paper), so I'd be massively grateful to hear if anyone has experienced this issue, has a solve for it or any suggestions that I haven’t thought of.

Thanks I’m advance Wiim community

 

[jpgr1962]

I didn't intend to write an essay, but here we are. If you want to skip the detail, the conclusion is at the bottom.

Disclaimer: I'm very new to audio, and still learning and building up my system as and when I find good deals on components. If I made any attempt to explain any of the science in this or made accidental assumptions, please disregard .

Setup:

• Turntable: Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Evo
• Stylus: Ortofon Stylus 2M Blue
• Phono Preamp 1: Fosi Audio Box X3
• Phono Preamp 2: Pro-Ject Tube Box S2
• Amp: Fosi Audio V3 with 48V Power Supply
• Streamer: WiiM Pro Plus
• Album: Radiohead - In Rainbows - Jigsaw Falling Into Place

Notes:

• The X3 has treble, bass and volume control but no gain, whereas the S2 has only gain control where you can select from the following (in dB): 40, 43, 50, 53, 60 and 63.
• The Ortofon is a MM cartridge, and I expect a gain setting on the S2 of 40 or 43 to be adequate.
• WiiM volume set to max and EQ off.
• WiiM settings all on default, so line-in input resolution set to bit depth of 16 bits, and sample rate 48 kHz. I'll tinker with these settings later.
• X3 treble and bass set to the midpoint.

Tests:

# Test 1 - Fosi Audio Box X3 straight into V3

1. X3 vol 25%, V3 vol 50% - Too faint
2. X3 vol 50%, V3 vol 50% - Comfortable level, no distortion
3. X3 vol 75%, V3 vol 50% - Loud enough, no distortion
4. X3 vol 100%, V3 vol 33% - Turned the V3 down as likely to annoy the neighbours. Treble slightly jarring at this point.

# Test 2 - Pro-Ject Tube Box S2 straight into V3

1. S2 gain 40dB, V3 vol 33% - Comfortable level for me.
2. S2 gain 43dB, V3 vol 33% - Louder.
3. S2 gain 50dB...63dB, V3 vol 5% - Progressively louder. Music still audible but V3 volume needs to be set low. No distortion heard at any level.

# Test 3 - Fosi Audio Box X3 via WiiM line-in

Same results as Test 1. Perhaps a little louder than when input straight to V3. I need an RCA switch to be conclusive.

# Test 4 - Pro-Ject Tube Box S2 via WiiM line-in

1. S2 gain 40dB, V3 vol 33% - Sounds good, lower volume than equivalent song playing through Spotify.
2. S2 gain 43dB, V3 vol 33% - Louder, almost the same volume when I switched over to the same song playing on Spotify. The first half of song was clear with some crackling noise developing into the second half.
3. S2 gain 50dB, V3 vol 33% - Inaudible. The sound was like radio static, very distorted, crackly and loud.
4. 53dB...63dB - Nope, not going there.
5. S2 gain 50dB, V3 vol 33%, WiiM bit depth increased to 24 bits. - Increasing the bit depth cleaned up the sound significantly. Still, some 'static' present.
6. S2 gain 50dB, V3 vol 33%, WiiM bit depth 24 bits, WiiM sample rate increased to 192 kHz. - No change. Increasing the sample rate has no impact.

To conclude:

It's clear that gain influences the quality of the audio through the WiiM line-in, from audible to completely inaudible.

It appears the WiiM line-in, on default settings, cannot handle gain above 40dB.

Increasing the WiiM line-in bit depth to 24 bits yields a significant improvement in cleaning up that 'static' noise. This is good news for me, as 43dB (which at 16 bits revealed some slight distortion), feels like the optimum setting for my turntable in terms of my perception of volume, allowing it to be almost equivalent to other inputs such as from streaming services or ethernet. I've just played the entire album at 43dB and it sounds perfect now.

The Fosi Audio Box X3 had no issues, albeit it was not as loud and detailed as the Pro-Ject Tube Box S2. The X3 is designed for MM cartridges only, so I assume it has a fixed gain at the lower end and uses volume to compensate.

Therefore…

• Increase the line-in bit depth (WiiM app -> Devices -> Settings icon (the cog) -> Audio input -> Line-In Input Resolution -> Bit depth: 24 bits). I think 24 bits is only available on the WiiM Pro Plus and is determined by the onboard ADC, though I’m just speculating here.
• Consider one of those cheap phono preamps that use volume, like the X3. I see the X4 is discounted on Amazon UK right now @£73

Hope this helps.

I have a Fluance RT85N turntable with a Nagaoka MP200 stylus on a MP110 body. I run that into my Schiit Mani 2 preamp at 42 gain. I also have the WiiM mini. Recently, I decided to do an A/B comparison between playing an album on vinyl and Apple Music. I played the vinyl first and synced the album on Apple so I could go back and forth. I was surprised to find that streaming via Apple Music produced a better sound. An increase in clarity, loudness, bass - an overall muscular sound. I realized that I had the EQ on when streaming and decided to add EQ to vinyl playback as well.

I placed the WiiM mini in between the Mani 2 and my amplifier (Marantz PM8005). However, I found it necessary to lower the Mani to 33db of gain due to distortion. After adding the same EQ when playing vinyl, I found that it was still lacking compared to streaming.

I figured lowering the gain on the Mani had something to do with this, so I purchased the WiiM Ultra to use as a preamp to avoid distortion and the need to lower the gain. Irregardless, my conclusions were the same. Streaming won hands down. I had previously done A/B comparisons between vinyl and Bluetooth via my Sony DH-STR190 amplifier and vinyl always sounded better. I used these A/B comparisons to showcase to people the superior sound of vinyl…

I will go back to the Mani and increase to 48db of gain and remove the WiiM mini from the chain due to the distortion. However, it will be hard to be part with the ability to add EQ when playing vinyl. Plus, I’m not sure the increase in gain will be a match for the WiiM mini + EQ. But I’ll give it a shot sometime this week.

Btw., can anyone explain why I have been getting these results? Do I simply prefer the sound of streaming or am I missing something?

 

[QuarryHunslet]

When did you last clean your records?

 

[harkpabst]

... turntable with a Nagaoka MP200 stylus on a MP110 body

Did you align the cartridge with the MP200 stylus already installed? The cantilever is shorter on the MP200 than on the MP110. If you align the cart with the MP110 stylus in place and then replace it with the MP200 stylus, the cart will be misaligned!

Which protractor did you use?

 

[Mr Ee]

C'mon, just admit it... vinyl is sooo last century...

 

[harkpabst]

Did you mean to say next century? No, it's actually available to music lovers right now.

 

[slartibartfast]

C'mon, just admit it... vinyl is sooo last century...

Mine are all last century

 

[d6jg]

Speaking as someone who has digitised over 1,000 vinyl albums over the years I will simply say that vinyl never sounds the same as digital. If you digitise a vinyl album using decent equipment it can sound very very good but it will always retain a vinyl sound which makes it easy to spot compared to something that has always been in the digital domain.

 

[slartibartfast]

Speaking as someone who has digitised over 1,000 vinyl albums over the years I will simply say that vinyl never sounds the same as digital. If you digitise a vinyl album using decent equipment it can sound very very good but it will always retain a vinyl sound which makes it easy to spot compared to something that has always been in the digital domain.

Also most likely a different master was used. One that wasn't affected by the loudness war .

 

[dtc]

Did you mean to say next century? No, it's actually available to music lovers right now.

C'mon, just admit it... vinyl is sooo last century...

"People bought 43 million vinyl records last year, according to the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA). That’s 6 million more than the number of CDs sold in 2023, marking the second time since 1987 that’s happened and reflecting the steady 17-year-running growth of vinyl sales." This was in the US in 2023.

Vinyl records outsell CDs for the second year running

Some people will never give up a spinning disc.

www.theverge.com

 

[harkpabst]

Also most likely a different master was used. One that wasn't affected by the loudness war .

Hopefully a different master was used. One that compensates cutting loss and limits (out of phase) bass extension.

 

[jpgr1962]

When did you last clean your records?

Hello. I clean my records with a Pro-Ject VC-E2 RCM. Every record I purchase, new or old, is cleaned before being played. The records I used in these comparisons were recently cleaned.

 

[jpgr1962]

Did you align the cartridge with the MP200 stylus already installed? The cantilever is shorter on the MP200 than on the MP110. If you align the cart with the MP110 stylus in place and then replace it with the MP200 stylus, the cart will be misaligned!

Which protractor did you use?

Hello. I did not realign the cartridge when added the MP200 stylus. I had read that the cantilever was a bit shorter, but that a realignment would not be necessary. I can say that there was an immediate improvement when switching the styli. When doing my comparisons, I also used the MP110 stylus just in case. My findings were the same. I would like to be 100% sure the cart is not misaligned, so I will work on that. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

I forgot to add that I just purchased an Audio-Technica LP70x turntable and an ATVM95ML cartridge for my wife. I decided to plug this into my system to see what results I would get. Once again, streaming just sounded better. I also had to turn up the pre-gain up to 7.5db’s just to make it competitive.

Btw., the sound I get from vinyl is still very good and at times impressive. It isn’t until I do a direct A/B comparison, that I find that I find the sound lacking. I know I could just stop comparing and move on, but I can’t help to want to know why and see if there’s someway to close the gap. Are you familiar with Andrew Robinson on YouTube? He made a claim that the Audio-Technica LP140xp turntable paired with an Ortofon 2M black gives you that digital clarity, but also maintaining the warmth of vinyl. I’m considering giving that a go.

 

[jpgr1962]

C'mon, just admit it... vinyl is sooo last century...

Haha. There was a moment after comparing vinyl vs digital and my cueing lever on my turntable needing repair (which I attempted and only made matters worse) that I found myself briefly contemplating music sans vinyl. But that was short lived.

 

[d6jg]

Hello. I did not realign the cartridge when added the MP200 stylus. I had read that the cantilever was a bit shorter, but that a realignment would not be necessary. I can say that there was an immediate improvement when switching the styli. When doing my comparisons, I also used the MP110 stylus just in case. My findings were the same. I would like to be 100% sure the cart is not misaligned, so I will work on that. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

I forgot to add that I just purchased an Audio-Technica LP70x turntable and an ATVM95ML cartridge for my wife. I decided to plug this into my system to see what results I would get. Once again, streaming just sounded better. I also had to turn up the pre-gain up to 7.5db’s just to make it competitive.

Btw., the sound I get from vinyl is still very good and at times impressive. It isn’t until I do a direct A/B comparison, that I find that I find the sound lacking. I know I could just stop comparing and move on, but I can’t help to want to know why and see if there’s someway to close the gap. Are you familiar with Andrew Robinson on YouTube? He made a claim that the Audio-Technica LP140xp turntable paired with an Ortofon 2M black gives you that digital clarity, but also maintaining the warmth of vinyl. I’m considering giving that a go.

Sorry but neither of those AT Turntables can be considered state of the art. Sticking a 2M Black on one is a waste IMHO.

 

[slartibartfast]

Hello. I did not realign the cartridge when added the MP200 stylus. I had read that the cantilever was a bit shorter, but that a realignment would not be necessary. I can say that there was an immediate improvement when switching the styli. When doing my comparisons, I also used the MP110 stylus just in case. My findings were the same. I would like to be 100% sure the cart is not misaligned, so I will work on that. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

I forgot to add that I just purchased an Audio-Technica LP70x turntable and an ATVM95ML cartridge for my wife. I decided to plug this into my system to see what results I would get. Once again, streaming just sounded better. I also had to turn up the pre-gain up to 7.5db’s just to make it competitive.

Btw., the sound I get from vinyl is still very good and at times impressive. It isn’t until I do a direct A/B comparison, that I find that I find the sound lacking. I know I could just stop comparing and move on, but I can’t help to want to know why and see if there’s someway to close the gap. Are you familiar with Andrew Robinson on YouTube? He made a claim that the Audio-Technica LP140xp turntable paired with an Ortofon 2M black gives you that digital clarity, but also maintaining the warmth of vinyl. I’m considering giving that a go.

What were you comparing the vinyl to? Maybe you like the sound of loud remasters

 

[harkpabst]

Are you familiar with Andrew Robinson on YouTube?

Unfortunately yes.

He made a claim that the Audio-Technica LP140xp turntable paired with an Ortofon 2M black gives you that digital clarity, but also maintaining the warmth of vinyl. I’m considering giving that a go.

Whatever he says, take good care and just do the opposite.

I like my Rega P6 (now with the incredibly good ND7) more than anything else but the medium LP record simply has its limits. There's simply no way that a very good pressing played through a very good deck could beat a very good digitally streamed master. But it can be surprisingly good and clearly beat a bad recording streamed through the best digital chain. If you get to that point you are pretty far already.

I forgot to add that I just purchased an Audio-Technica LP70x turntable and an ATVM95ML cartridge for my wife.

The lowish level says nothing about the quality but about the phono pre-amplifier in use. The Audio-Technica VM95 range is actually excellent (not just) for the money. I know that the VM95ML gets all the praise but my clear favourite is the VM95SH. I prefer it over the MP110, MP200 and over the AT VM540ML. It has extremely smooth mids and heights combined with excellent detail and precision.

 

[d6jg]

I agree that the VM95 range is great value for money. I have an VM95ML on one of my turntables and Ortofon 2M Bronze on another. The ML is good but imho the 2M Bronze has significantly more detail but it was twice the price.

 

[harkpabst]

I know I'm swimming against the tide here, but if you ever get the chance to hear the Shibata needle in the VM95, give it a chance.

Cannot compare it to any 2M cartridge, but to my ears the little loved VM95SH really has something very special about it. I've been using it in a RigB body and did apply a drop of thread locking glue to the front contact area between body and stylus tray.