More line level output settings please

[Orcker]

Hi I love my Ultra. It's the best all in one front end I have ever owned and I so pleased that WiiM keeps it updated regularly.

As someone who owns multiple amplifiers, both tube and solid state, the variable line level out is super useful for better line level matching to suit each amplifier.

The current options are: 2000, 1000, 800, 500 and 200mV.

Many tube amplifiers require generally lower line level inputs. 300, 150 and even 100mV are common.

E.g., my Audio Note OTO SE needs 300mV, but the 200mV on the Ultra is too low and 500mV completely overloads the circuit - losing separation, clarity and dynamics. My very sensitive Audion 300B amp needs 100-150mV so the 200mV setting is already too much, causing system overload and less than ideal sound

So can we please have additional line level voltage settings please if it's possible to implement?

Suggested add ons: 100mV, 150mV, 300mV, 400mV

Many many thanks in advance!

Warmest regards
O

 

[slartibartfast]

Hi I love my Ultra. It's the best all in one front end I have ever owned and I so pleased that WiiM keeps it updated regularly.

As someone who owns multiple amplifiers, both tube and solid state, the variable line level out is super useful for better line level matching to suit each amplifier.

The current options are: 2000, 1000, 800, 500 and 200mV.

Many tube amplifiers require generally lower line level inputs. 300, 150 and even 100mV are common.

E.g., my Audio Note OTO SE needs 300mV, but the 200mV on the Ultra is too low and 500mV completely overloads the circuit - losing separation, clarity and dynamics. My very sensitive Audion 300B amp needs 100-150mV so the 200mV setting is already too much, causing system overload and less than ideal sound

So can we please have additional line level voltage settings please if it's possible to implement?

Suggested add ons: 100mV, 150mV, 300mV, 400mV

Many many thanks in advance!

Warmest regards
O

Why not use the volume control? The output level setting just sets the maximum.

 

[merifon]

If you want to rely on "analog adjustment" and not involve resampling on digital domain as WiiM volume does, why don't make a resistive divider, directly on the cable, or in a little metal box, possibly with a potentiometer. If don't like to use soldering, some ready made are available.
If you set as exemple, the wiim output on higher side (1 or 2V) and reduce with such divider down to desired level, you'll increase the S/N ratio also.

 

[Orcker]

Why not use the volume control? The output level setting just sets the maximum.

LOL

 

[Orcker]

If you want to rely on "analog adjustment" and not involve resampling on digital domain as WiiM volume does, why don't make a resistive divider, directly on the cable, or in a little metal box, possibly with a potentiometer. If don't like to use soldering, some ready made are available.
If you set as exemple, the wiim output on higher side (1 or 2V) and reduce with such divider down to desired level, you'll increase the S/N ratio also.

Why bother if it can be done in the WiiM right? It's already a feature of the device. Just expand the options, and then no need for further signal degrading bits and pieces in the chain, no need to spend more money, no need for more crap on the shelf.

 

[slartibartfast]

LOL

What's funny

 

[slartibartfast]

Why bother if it can be done in the WiiM right? It's already a feature of the device. Just expand the options, and then no need for further signal degrading bits and pieces in the chain, no need to spend more money, no need for more crap on the shelf.

Do you want an option for every output level in 0.5dB steps?

 

[DariuszP]

Why not use the volume control? The output level setting just sets the maximum.

As far I know, each additional attenuator in the chain (especially: those working in digital domain) degrades the signal to some extent. I personally do not bother that much and often use double attenuation (one in WiiM Ultra, one in my integrated amp) for convenience (WiiM remote / laptop always on my desk), but would understand that some people might want to avoid it. Obviously you cannot implement all possible values (unless you do it as an additional slider?) as this would be potentially confusing to many users, but in fact adding some more "typical" values probably would not hurt as e.g. difference between 200 and 500 is +1.5x, while between 800 and 1000 is only +0.25x.

 

[slartibartfast]

As far I know, each additional attenuator in the chain (especially: those working in digital domain) degrades the signal to some extent. I personally do not bother that much and often use double attenuation (one in WiiM Ultra, one in my integrated amp) for convenience (WiiM remote / laptop always on my desk), but would understand that some people might want to avoid it. Obviously you cannot implement all possible values (unless you do it as an additional slider?) as this would be potentially confusing to many users, but in fact adding some more "typical" values probably would not hurt as e.g. difference between 200 and 500 is +1.5x, while between 800 and 1000 is only +0.25x.

If you don't want to use a volume control you still need quite a few levels below 200mV if the amplifier input sensitivity is 300mV unless you listen at high volumes all the time.

 

[DariuszP]

If you don't want to use a volume control you still need quite a few levels below 200mV if the amplifier input sensitivity is 300mV unless you listen at high volumes all the time.

I understood that @Orcker wants to use volume control built into his other gear. If not, then obviously you are right - it would not be very practical to replace potentiometer with input sensitivity matching the requested volume.

 

[slartibartfast]

I understood that @Orcker wants to use volume control built into his other gear. If not, then obviously you are right - it would not be very practical to replace potentiometer with input sensitivity matching the requested volume.

He said 500mV completely overloads his amp so does it have a volume control?

 

[merifon]

Why bother if it can be done in the WiiM right? It's already a feature of the device. Just expand the options, and then no need for further signal degrading bits and pieces in the chain, no need to spend more money, no need for more crap on the shelf.

Absolutely but I'm on "Do It Yourself" side and enjoy it...
Anyway the improvements of S/N ratio are true (and difficult to ear too)

 

[DariuszP]

He said 500mV completely overloads his amp so does it have a volume control?

Good point, but he might mean that it is simply too loud, decreasing the "resolution" of volume control (too high on low volumes, overload at medium volumes). But in fact - I do not know, so I will shut up.

 

[Orcker]

Do you want an option for every output level in 0.5dB steps?

If that is possible, yes. Keeps things simple for different amp set ups, and is in line with the WiiM philosophy of enpowering the WiiM owner with the ability to fine tune the sound for the best results. The Ultra is a tinkerer's dream tool. The super useful Line Level output setting is already there, and they seem to have implemented a previous request for 200mV to be included, so a few more output levels that are useful for tube amp owners isn't unreasonable.

 

[slartibartfast]

If that is possible, yes. Keeps things simple for different amp set ups, and is in line with the WiiM philosophy of enpowering the WiiM owner with the ability to fine tune the sound for the best results. The Ultra is a tinkerer's dream tool. The super useful Line Level output setting is already there, and they seem to have implemented a previous request for 200mV to be included, so a few more output levels that are useful for tube amp owners isn't unreasonable.

Does your amp have a volume control? Presumably you don't always listen at maximum source output voltage.

 

[Orcker]

Does your amp have a volume control? Presumably you don't always listen at maximum source output voltage.

Depends on the amp. Some do, some don't.

 

[harkpabst]

E.g., my Audio Note OTO SE needs 300mV, but the 200mV on the Ultra is too low and 500mV completely overloads the circuit - losing separation, clarity and dynamics. My very sensitive Audion 300B amp needs 100-150mV so the 200mV setting is already too much, causing system overload and less than ideal sound

I have some trouble imagining what's going on here. The output level of the Ultra is not constant, of course. It's the maximum level when the digital signal reaches 0 dB internally.

500 mV is 4.4 dB higher than 300 mV. It's possible (but not an indication of good design) that this might overdrive the input, if the internal digital music signal reaches 0 dB. If the peaks.remain below -4.5 dBFS the amp won't notice any difference. 200 mV OTOH is just 3.5 dB down from 300 mV. You cannot reach the desired loudness with this setting? 3.5.dB is not a lot.

And again, we are talking the highest RMS voltage that can ever occur. Most of the time music will be substantially lower in level.

 

[DariuszP]

Depends on the amp. Some do, some don't.

If they don't then apparently they would need a pre-amp - and the one built into WiiM Ultra should do the job. If they do, then you can put the line out at a bit higher level and attenuate in your integrated amp? Please note that I do not try to invalidate your request - maybe adding a bit more flexibility would be hardware-possible (and I guess would not create a confusion, unless total number of settings is unreasonable).

 

[Orcker]

I have some trouble imagining what's going on here. The output level of the Ultra is not constant, of course. It's the maximum level when the digital signal reaches 0 dB internally.

500 mV is 4.4 dB higher than 300 mV. It's possible (but not an indication of good design) that this might overdrive the input, if the internal digital music signal reaches 0 dB. If the peaks.remain below -4.5 dBFS the amp won't notice any difference. 200 mV OTOH is just 3.5 dB down from 300 mV. You cannot reach the desired loudness with this setting? 3.5.dB is not a lot.

And again, we are talking the highest RMS voltage that can ever occur. Most of the time music will be substantially lower in level.

Well. I am as surprised as you. The thing is, at 200mV, with the volume pot maxed out on the OTO using the WiiM to control the volume, most non DSD rips are fine with the Ultra's volume between 60-75%, with some softer recordings requiring higher. With the majority of DSD files, I am at nearly 100% and often require more.

At 500mV with the OTO, you'd think that tinkering with the volume pot on the amp to tune it down suitably might work but the sound at most listenable volumes is just poor. Vocals are swamped by instruments for instance and the sound lacks the finesse you hear at 200mV. Is it the quality of the volume pot of the OTO - a fairly standard ALPS Blue, that's not good at that particular less than max setting? Is it something else on the Ultra side? Who knows? But what I do know from actual listening is that the OTO sounds the best with the volume pot at wide open, with a 200mV line level input from the Ultra. But it's not an ideal setting for DSD recordings as the WiiM can run out of volume.

Once again, if 300mV can be set, that would be ideal. It'll be the necessary sweet spot for that amp in my experience. It's also what's spec'd by Audio Note.

With my various amps and speaker combinations, it'll just make it that much easier to easily get the right sound if there are just those additional 100, 150 and 300mV settings. And if it can be implemented in firmware, why not? It'll give us tube amp owners a lot more flexibility of control over sound quality.

 

[DariuszP]

But it's not an ideal setting for DSD recordings as the WiiM can run out of volume.

Just out of curiosity - have you tried the combination of 200mV while increasing Pre-Gain (for particular source) in Audio Input section? I am not saying it is ideal, but maybe it could temporarily help?