Questions and observations about class 1 and class 2 (safety ground vs floating) devices

[HansD-NL]

I read an great post from @dominikz about testing the Amp Pro vs Amp Ultra. In the closing of his posts he mentioned: "The difference in grounding (two-pin vs three-pin power connection) between the two amps may be a factor to some people as well - depending on system layout and connections you might get a ground loop with one but not the other."

I want to expand on that with some thoughts:
Problems with ground loops aside which can sometimes be hard to pinpoint there is the fact that in my country The Netherlands a lot of older houses don't have wall sockets with (safety) earth in living rooms, bedrooms and the like. Kitchens, bathrooms and placed where a water heater and washing machines are have earthed wall sockets, that is already standard for a lot of years for obvious reasons. Newer houses build or renovated after 1997 have 3 pin wall sockets everywhere.

The problem: If someone in an older house buys for instance a Amp Ultra which has a 3 pin earthed connection they have no other option than to connect to a 2 pin wall socket and that off course will work but is not following safety standards and in a rare case of serious faults the chassis is at line voltage. Dangerous

Also and I think very important. Class 1 devices have their internal filtering (EMI/RFI) constructed with the safety earth in mind an need it to make the filters work like they should especially if the power supply is a SMPS. That all goes south when connecting to a 2 pin wall socket.

So the bottom line is that the above situation is not only dangerous but also cripples the correct working of the filtering.
There are loads of people who connect class 1 devices to non earthed sockets, I've seen a lot of cases over the years.
All my own audio gear are Class 2 devices because I also live in an older house. If I have a class 1 device for testing of whatever I roll out an extension cord to the kitchen.
Last story: My father who also lives in an older house needed an new amplifier and a lot of devices (mostly newer) were no option because they were class 1. I settled on a Rotel amp (class 2) for him.

What are you guys thoughts about the this and how is the situation in other country's

I hope my post is clear to read and understand, English is not my first language but I always try the best I can.

 

[HansD-NL]

And the question arises why Wiim choose to change to a 3 pin on the Amp Ultra while other Wiim products don't have/need that. I know it is because of the power supply they chose but they could just as easily chose a PS without the need for a 3 pin.

 

[hgo58]

I read an great post from @dominikz about testing the Amp Pro vs Amp Ultra. In the closing of his posts he mentioned: "The difference in grounding (two-pin vs three-pin power connection) between the two amps may be a factor to some people as well - depending on system layout and connections you might get a ground loop with one but not the other."

I want to expand on that with some thoughts:
Problems with ground loops aside which can sometimes be hard to pinpoint there is the fact that in my country The Netherlands a lot of older houses don't have wall sockets with (safety) earth in living rooms, bedrooms and the like. Kitchens, bathrooms and placed where a water heater and washing machines are have earthed wall sockets, that is already standard for a lot of years for obvious reasons. Newer houses build or renovated after 1997 have 3 pin wall sockets everywhere.

The problem: If someone in an older house buys for instance a Amp Ultra which has a 3 pin earthed connection they have no other option than to connect to a 2 pin wall socket and that off course will work but is not following safety standards and in a rare case of serious faults the chassis is at line voltage. Dangerous

Also and I think very important. Class 1 devices have their internal filtering (EMI/RFI) constructed with the safety earth in mind an need it to make the filters work like they should especially if the power supply is a SMPS. That all goes south when connecting to a 2 pin wall socket.

So the bottom line is that the above situation is not only dangerous but also cripples the correct working of the filtering.
There are loads of people who connect class 1 devices to non earthed sockets, I've seen a lot of cases over the years.
All my own audio gear are Class 2 devices because I also live in an older house. If I have a class 1 device for testing of whatever I roll out an extension cord to the kitchen.
Last story: My father who also lives in an older house needed an new amplifier and a lot of devices (mostly newer) were no option because they were class 1. I settled on a Rotel amp (class 2) for him.

What are you guys thoughts about the this and how is the situation in other country's

I hope my post is clear to read and understand, English is not my first language but I always try the best I can.

We have the same situation here in Denmark. I never buy class 1 equipment, except for the kitchen. And even there we have issues, as most equipment we can buy is fit with plug type C (Euro Plug), while the old sockets are type E or F. They fit but the ground is not connected!

 

[dominikz]

I read an great post from @dominikz about testing the Amp Pro vs Amp Ultra. In the closing of his posts he mentioned: "The difference in grounding (two-pin vs three-pin power connection) between the two amps may be a factor to some people as well - depending on system layout and connections you might get a ground loop with one but not the other."

I want to expand on that with some thoughts:
Problems with ground loops aside which can sometimes be hard to pinpoint there is the fact that in my country The Netherlands a lot of older houses don't have wall sockets with (safety) earth in living rooms, bedrooms and the like. Kitchens, bathrooms and placed where a water heater and washing machines are have earthed wall sockets, that is already standard for a lot of years for obvious reasons. Newer houses build or renovated after 1997 have 3 pin wall sockets everywhere.

The problem: If someone in an older house buys for instance a Amp Ultra which has a 3 pin earthed connection they have no other option than to connect to a 2 pin wall socket and that off course will work but is not following safety standards and in a rare case of serious faults the chassis is at line voltage. Dangerous

Also and I think very important. Class 1 devices have their internal filtering (EMI/RFI) constructed with the safety earth in mind an need it to make the filters work like they should especially if the power supply is a SMPS. That all goes south when connecting to a 2 pin wall socket.

So the bottom line is that the above situation is not only dangerous but also cripples the correct working of the filtering.
There are loads of people who connect class 1 devices to non earthed sockets, I've seen a lot of cases over the years.
All my own audio gear are Class 2 devices because I also live in an older house. If I have a class 1 device for testing of whatever I roll out an extension cord to the kitchen.
Last story: My father who also lives in an older house needed an new amplifier and a lot of devices (mostly newer) were no option because they were class 1. I settled on a Rotel amp (class 2) for him.

What are you guys thoughts about the this and how is the situation in other country's

I hope my post is clear to read and understand, English is not my first language but I always try the best I can.

As far as I'm aware, in Croatia all sockets are earthed (3-pin type) so I personally never had an issue using a Class I device.

 

[harkpabst]

I've never seen a 2 pin wall socket in Germany in my whole life. Even in very old buildings the safety earth has traditionally been connected to neutral. This is not the best solution, of course, but better than not connecting the safety earth at all.

And the question arises why Wiim choose to change to a 3 pin on the Amp Ultra while other Wiim products don't have/need that. I know it is because of the power supply they chose but they could just as easily chose a PS without the need for a 3 pin.

As far as I know there's a current limit for class 1 devices class 2 devices (correction, see below posts) at least in the EU. It's possible that (with some safety margin) the maximum power input of the WiiM Amp Ultra would forbid the use of a two prong cable.

 

[HansD-NL]

I've never seen a 2 pin wall socket in Germany in my whole life. Even in very old buildings the safety earth has traditionally been connected to neutral. This is not the best solution, of course, but better than not connecting the safety earth at all.

That's great, so type F sockets everywhere, interesting. We have loads of 2 pin (type C) sockets still "floating" (pun) around here. In fact I'm looking at one right now behind my desk. Just like there are still a lot of type A 2 pin sockets in the US I think.

As far as I know there's a current limit for class 1 devices at least in the EU. It's possible that (with some safety margin) the maximum power input of the WiiM Amp Ultra would forbid the use of a two prong cable.

You mean current limit for class 2 devices. That could be, have to look that up.

 

[harkpabst]

You mean current limit for class 2 devices. That could be, have to look that up.

Sorry, yes of course.

It's surprising that there's such a difference in electric home installations, when the Netherlands and Germany are so close neighbours and pretty similar in other areas.

 

[PIMK]

It has to do with with the Voltage and the Isolation of elektrik Devices in Germany. If the Decice is supplied with more the 42V and has a Metal-Case this Case has to be connected to PE.This will normally trigger the Fuse in your fuse box in case you have no RCD. If the Case ist completely isolated or supplied with less the 42V a 2 Pin Connection without PE is allowed.