RoomFit volume settings

[hgo58]

I am wondering what volume I should use for RoomFit measures.

To my experience I need different EQ for different volume settings when playing. I don't know if it's the speakers or the room but to have the best sound I need to change EQ depending on volume.

So how do I handle this with RoomFit? Creating multiple PEQ filters? One for each volume step.

 

[EddNog]

I am wondering what volume I should use for RoomFit measures.

To my experience I need different EQ for different volume settings when playing. I don't know if it's the speakers or the room but to have the best sound I need to change EQ depending on volume.

So how do I handle this with RoomFit? Creating multiple PEQ filters? One for each volume step.

I think the normal standard is to try and have the sweep more than 40dB above noise floor. You can probably use a free app like DecibelX to see what dB the noise floor is in your room, when when running the RoomFit sweeps, see what level it peaks at in DecibelX and if it's not at least 40dB above noise floor, raise the volume and sweep again.

-Ed

 

[dominikz]

Room effects (modes and SBIR) are typically linear and shouldn't change with volume.
Could it be the response differences you are seeing are resulting from ambient noise, differences in mic positioning, or changes in room layout (e.g. closed vs open windows or doors; in my room the extent to which a sliding door on a wardrobe is open affects some resonances)?
E.g. I have 3-4 RC presets for the usual differences in door/window position.

 

[EddNog]

Room effects (modes and SBIR) are typically linear and shouldn't change with volume.
Could it be the response differences you are seeing are resulting from ambient noise, differences in mic positioning, or changes in room layout (e.g. closed vs open windows or doors; in my room the extent to which a sliding door on a wardrobe is open affects some resonances)?
E.g. I have 3-4 RC presets for the usual differences in door/window position.

This is true for probably 98% of the frequency spectrum.

However, if playing louder and louder sweeps (before clipping), the roll-off of subs and/or tweeters may come into play at the very bottom and/or top of the frequency spectrum, just because extension can change depending on reference volume level. A good example, at lower levels, my 3000 Micros in my room can get down to 20Hz, but when played louder and louder, the F3 and F6 will start going up towards 23Hz because the sub can't push 20Hz that high.

-Ed

 

[hgo58]

I don't hear any correlation with changes to the room. I just know I need positive gain on low frequencies on low volume and negative gain on high volume for the music to sound "good".

I'm still waiting for the external mic, so just preparing. Using the phone mic just don't work and make everything sound dull.

 

[EddNog]

I don't hear any correlation with changes to the room. I just know I need positive gain on low frequencies on low volume and negative gain on high volume for the music to sound "good".

I'm still waiting for the external mic, so just preparing. Using the phone mic just don't work and make everything sound dull.

You're talking about our ear's natural insensitivity to parts of the frequency spectrum. The Harman curve was specifically developed to try and combat this effect, especially at lower volumes. With proper clean bass, even at high volumes, the bass should be tight and clear (with Harman curve), but without proper control/correction, boosted bass (like with Harman curve) can get bloaty and excessive. Always trade-offs in life.

-Ed

 

[dominikz]

This is true for probably 98% of the frequency spectrum.

However, if playing louder and louder sweeps (before clipping), the roll-off of subs and/or tweeters may come into play at the very bottom and/or top of the frequency spectrum, just because extension can change depending on reference volume level. A good example, at lower levels, my 3000 Micros in my room can get down to 20Hz, but when played louder and louder, the F3 and F6 will start going up towards 23Hz because the sub can't push 20Hz that high.

-Ed

Of course, this is because of non-linearity of the amp and/or driver, either physical or from a protection circuit (e.g limiter).

Above I was speaking strictly about room effects - but you raise a valid point too, thanks!

Though I suspect pretty high levels are required to see this in your system, right?

 

[EddNog]

Of course, this is because of non-linearity of the amp and/or driver, either physical or from a protection circuit (e.g limiter).

Above I was speaking strictly about room effects - but you raise a valid point too, thanks!

Though I suspect pretty high levels are required to see this in your system, right?

Well, really, I'd say it depends on your speakers/subs.

I have to play it average like 75dB (85dB peaks) from my main listening position 10 feet away to see my 3000 Micros, "tap out," from hitting 20Hz, but something like the new WiiM Sub Pro is probably going to be out of breath a lot lower than that.

-Ed

 

[dominikz]

Well, really, I'd say it depends on your speakers/subs.

I have to play it average like 75dB from my main listening position to see my 3000 Micros, "tap out," from hitting 20Hz, but something like the new WiiM Sub Pro is probably going to be out of breath a lot lower than that.

-Ed

Indeed. In which case it would be a bad idea to use RC to try and boost the range where compression happens as it would just make thing worse rather than better. :/

In general I'd say it is often a bad idea to use positive gain EQ filter in RC, this just being one example of a potential issue.
Unfortunately WiiM RoomFit still doesn't allow limiting the correction to only negative gain filters...

 

[EddNog]

Indeed. In which case it would be a bad idea to use RC to try and boost the range where compression happens as it would just make thing worse rather than better. :/

In general I'd say it is often a bad idea to use positive gain EQ filter in RC, this just being one example of a potential issue.
Unfortunately WiiM RoomFit still doesn't allow limiting the correction to only negative gain filters...

Yes, unfortunately, it cannot do that. Best you can do is cap it somewhere very low, maybe as close to zero as possible, run the automated room correction, then, after the correction is done, take a count of how many attempted boosts there are, then use an external app, like say HouseCurve (which is free!), run a sweep, then manually formulate and apply more peak reductions by replacing the attempted boost slots with negative filters, and then running another sweep in HouseCurve to check your results. HouseCurve is nice in that it also allows you to separately sweep left and right channels, among other things. If you pay for HouseCurve, it will even generate its own filters automatically and you can set it to only cuts and set it to 10 filters max, but then you must manually enter them all into the WiiM Home App.

-Ed

 

[hgo58]

You're talking about our ear's natural insensitivity to parts of the frequency spectrum. The Harman curve was specifically developed to try and combat this effect, especially at lower volumes. With proper clean bass, even at high volumes, the bass should be tight and clear (with Harman curve), but without proper control/correction, boosted bass (like with Harman curve) can get bloaty and excessive. Always trade-offs in life.

-Ed

But the Harman curve don't change with the volume. If I raise the gain for low volume I get too much bass at high volume. Maybe it's just my ears?

I guess it will help when (if) we get independent RoomFit PEQ and EQ?

 

[EddNog]

But the Harman curve don't change with the volume. If I raise the gain for low volume I get too much bass at high volume. Maybe it's just my ears?

Not necessarily your mind/ears. If the bass is not room-corrected (the part of the spectrum that suffers the worst from room interactions), that bloaty bass only gets amplified by Harman. Once the the bass is properly tamed with room correction, it won't, "feel or sound," like too much bass even at high volumes with a Harman curve.

-Ed

 

[dominikz]

Best you can do is cap it somewhere very low, maybe as close to zero as possible

Unfortunately this works much worse than one would expect in WiiM RC. :/
I wrote about this recently here.

At the moment IMHO the easiest way to get good control of room correction in WiiM is to use REW to generate EQ filter attributes and configure them manually. That works great, but is not automated :/

But the Harman curve don't change with the volume. If I raise the gain for low volume I get too much bass at high volume. Maybe it's just my ears?

I guess it will help when (if) we get independent RoomFit PEQ and EQ?

No, that’s the same for everyone, simply a result of human hearing non-linearity.

As you mentioned, soon you should be able to use EQ in addition to RC to compensate tonality as needed, though!