HansD-NL
Senior Member
We don't understand what you are saying. That's the whole problem, nothing personal.
The competition doesn't sleep
- Thread starter onlyoneme
- Start date
So, try to understand onlyoneme's message and results...and possibly understand precisely how the method differs here from what armim presents on asr here...
the useful thing...
;-)
No problemo for me
;-)
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slartibartfast
Major Contributor
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Just tell us how the method differs and put us out of our misery.
"""Let's talk about the jitter over digital outputs. I will use the Holo Audio Spring 3 DAC which is a true NOS DAC and has an unique ability to turn off its PLL. This way I can compare a raw performance of the outputs in j-test."""
Thread of onlyoneme
This is not done in the Armim measures with his AP and by some who want to reproduce this approach with RME machines that do not allow the input " PLLs" ( strong steadyclock fs) to be turned off... etc.
We can't observe anything this way...and explains that all the digital sources tested in this way seem to have remarkable j-test results
Etc
Excuse me... I'm fed up and I'm stopping here...
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But why? This was your first post on this topic that made me finally understand what you're after here.
This is where the discussion should start, not where it should end.
That's the price for a pair
I realise that. It's still too high IMOThat's the price for a pair
EddNog
Major Contributor
It goes without saying that we'll need to see how well they perform, but if they're meant to compete against the likes of speakers like KEF LS50 Wireless II, that pricing is within the range of competing products. These things simply aren't inexpensive.
-Ed
I'm still not quite sure, so I would be happy if you could tell me.
So, are you saying that if you measure the Arylic LP10 with the NOS DAC, the results will be equivalent to the Mini?
What do you predict the results will be?
I'm curious about what you said in your first post.
castalla
Major Contributor
Bose open-sources its SoundTouch home theater smart speakers ahead of end-of-life
If companies insist on bricking gadgets, this is a better way to do it.
arstechnica.com
castalla
Major Contributor
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Just sharing personal experience:
Spent 4 years with a Bluesound Powernode (N330) I purchased before WiiM appeared.
Enjoyed the unit very much, reliable and easy to use. Build quality still significantly better than WiiM objectively and that is what you pay for with them.
Other than that now WiiM fixed the awful WiFi connectivity issue the regular Amp has (at least in my crowded environment) on the Amp Pro you get more power, better SINAD, good (and simple, heard Dirac is very complex) Room Correction, better and more important CONSTANTLY EVOLVING app, MUCH more lively forum and responsive support, free cables and remote for 62% (yes nearly 2/3) less money! In my case the Bluesound package will cost you €1203 where the WiiM is at €459, in all honesty that is a steal...
Considering Dirac is not even available on Bluesound's powered products range as we speak (has just been announced but it can easily take 6-12 months more to come - many users of the Bluesound forum have been asking for some basic EQ for years and are just ignored) it is a no brainer for many and hard to get why anyone would go after Bluesound except for build quality and marketing.
Appreciate missing AirPlay on WiiM is a bummer (for me as well) but can be mitigated with a Belkin SoundForm or even a WiiM Mini for cheap.
All-in-all I ended-up being lucky enough selling my Powernode (a lot of them are available on the second-hand market right now) and purchasing a new WiiM Amp Pro instead making a profit (!) while still significantly improving sound on all aspects (ability to automatically do RC + dedicated EQ on HDMI input was the real game changer to me, I can get movies dialogs now which was impossible with Bluesound)
Aquaman
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I never missed any EQ or room correction on the Bluesounds. I was happy with the possiblity to adjust just bass and trebble. That‘s all I ever need(ed).
What was a real PITA was the fact that BS devices have their own library. You need to have them all switched on for a rescan and distribute this scan to all the boxes. What a drag!
I much prefer to have a central server on my NAS that every device (WiiM or not) can access.
dominikz
Major Contributor
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Thanks for explaining your position!
IMHO this could be a constructive discussion, so I'm really sorry to see it agitated you. While it can be difficult to get our statements challenged and having to defend our positions, it is also an opportunity to sharpen our argumentation and deepen our understanding, or to learn something new and consequently change our minds (if the other side provides convincing enough arguments). My opinion is that either way we can benefit in the end, if we're open to the process.
To the topic at hand: while I have some sympathy for your position (i.e. that jitter suppression in the receiving device can hide some of the imperfections in the digital stream of the sending device), I don't agree that this automatically means there is no value in the digital output tests in ASR reviews.
From the practical example of the two streamers measured on ASR (which I posted about a few posts previously - link to post), one shows a much better result than the other in the same test, on the same equipment, done by the same person.
So even if one dislikes the test protocol itself, IMHO the test still has value in a comparative sense - since it measures two devices under the same conditions.
However, given that we can't know how well jitter suppression will work in any random DAC we may use, jitter tests without it (such as those performed by @onlyoneme) are interesting as well. In this sense I do agree with you.
One question though: are you certain AP digital input performs jitter suppression on the incoming digital stream of the DUT? Is this documented or discussed somewhere I could read about it?
At this point I should probably add that I'm under the impression that jitter suppression is pretty common in commercial DACs (but I have no numbers to support this), and that even in tests without jitter suppression WiiM Mini seems to have inaudible levels of jitter on its digital output. If I'm reading @onlyoneme's results correctly, WiiM Mini digital output seems to have less than 1ns of jitter, which is much less than what jitter audibility studies I've seen suggest is audible.
For those interested in the topic of jitter audibility, Archimago also has an interesting article, complete with example audio files with different amounts of jitter added.
All that being said, many of the audio measurements compared (and discussed at length) are under what we consider to be human audibility thresholds - so you are IMO right to point out that there's no reason to treat jitter differently.
In j-test... in toslink or spdif out ..
Don't mix everything up.
The observations I pointed out by onlyoneme have nothing to do with what armim is pointing out, for example, here on the mini...nothing at all, etc.
like the measurements taken by some, clumsy ones taken on RME... despite the steadyclock etc.
I invite you to keep an eye on this topic...you'll see...
;-)
STop for me
Thread 'Jitter over digital outputs for different WiiMs' https://forum.wiimhome.com/threads/jitter-over-digital-outputs-for-different-wiims.4186/
Don't mix everything up.
The observations I pointed out by onlyoneme have nothing to do with what armim is pointing out, for example, here on the mini...nothing at all, etc.
like the measurements taken by some, clumsy ones taken on RME... despite the steadyclock etc.
I invite you to keep an eye on this topic...you'll see...
;-)
STop for me
Thread 'Jitter over digital outputs for different WiiMs' https://forum.wiimhome.com/threads/jitter-over-digital-outputs-for-different-wiims.4186/
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dominikz
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I understand the measurements done by Amir are different to the ones done by @onlyoneme (in several ways), so I don't see where I'm mixing anything up.
If you read my post again you will see that I never stated their tests are the same - just that there's value in both (and why I believe that is so).
If you feel something specific in my post is incorrect, you're free to point it out and explain - I'm happy to learn something new!
Groove Catcher
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That sounds like an Australian problem. 499 for an all in one speaker doesn’t sound too bad.
Yes I feel like the whole lineup is very competitively priced actually. First of all: look at them
and the actual speaker design for the M and X version is quite complex - with the extra downfiring woofer. Reminds me a bit of Buchardt and Ascilab. Paired with a powerful DSP, I'm sure they'll sound pretty neat!I hope WiiM is taking notice. They've still got time to convince me as the Cambridge Audio's won't go on sale before summer.
(finally we can get back on topic)
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Groove Catcher
Active member
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Those Cambridge speakers are gorgeous I would love the green ones! Actually any of those colors are just fantastic.Yes I feel like the whole lineup is very competitively priced actually. First of all: look at them
I hope WiiM is taking notice. They've still got time to convince me as the Cambridge Audio's won't go on sale before summer.
(finally we can get back on topic)
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