Two Pro Plus devices

[Wiimer]

Is this what you're after?

View attachment 6970

It is very well organized and wonderful.

 

[Wiimer]

I'd put WiiM 2 beside the LSX with the connection panels and use optical to minimise any delay or airplay transmission issues

You're right.

 

[Raphaz]

Thank you all!

What I’m after seems not possible without issues or compromises.
So at this point I’d be willing to make two compromises if that helps with delay, sync issues and such:
1. Sacrifice the Yamaha signature sound for the secondary/wireless speakers, and
2. Keep the Nikko

How does that change the equation?

 

[Raphaz]

Why sync issues if the WiiM devices are grouped "to play syncronously" as per the app screen, and if WiiM 2 is using its optical out into the LSX?

The LSX are not near by, so connecting them via optical to Wiim 2 is not possible. The idea is that the further away speakers are not wired.

 

[Doublej]

How's this for a creative solution?

Add another WiiM into the tape loop of the Yamaha receiver to add the desired delay to the receiver system.

 

[Brantome]

The LSX are not near by, so connecting them via optical to Wiim 2 is not possible. The idea is that the further away speakers are not wired.

In my diagram, I had WiiM 1 co-located with the Yamaha, and WiiM 2 co-located with the LSX - the WiiMs don’t need to be in close proximity to each other, they just need to be on the same network. Given that the LSX speakers both need to be mains powered, I’m struggling to understand why WiiM 2 can’t be located close to where they are, remote from WiiM 1 and the Yamaha.

 

[Brantome]

How's this for a creative solution?

Add another WiiM into the tape loop of the Yamaha receiver to add the desired delay to the receiver system.

What delay are you expecting and compensating for?

 

[Raphaz]

In my diagram, I had WiiM 1 co-located with the Yamaha, and WiiM 2 co-located with the LSX - the WiiMs don’t need to be in close proximity to each other, they just need to be on the same network. Given that the LSX speakers both need to be mains powered, I’m struggling to understand why WiiM 2 can’t be located close to where they are, remote from WiiM 1 and the Yamaha.

You have a point here

 

[Doublej]

What delay are you expecting and compensating for?

The difference in arrival time between the speakers attached to the Yamaha receiver and the KEF wireless speakers. Do you think this will be an issue?

 

[Brantome]

The difference in arrival time between the speakers attached to the Yamaha receiver and the KEF wireless speakers. Do you think this will be an issue?

If the tape out from the Yamaha into WiiM-1 does incur a delay in the audio sent to WiiM-2, then I’d suggest then feeding the sources into WiiM-1 instead (perhaps even thru a passive 4way box as I linked to above), with WiiM-1 feeding the Yamaha while it maintains sync with WiiM-2. Using the optical cable from WiiM-2 into the LSX should minimize any delay at that end, although if the sync mics on each WiiM are doing their jobs perhaps even that shouldn’t matter.

Now that we should be approaching a solution, it should be relatively straightforward to test things out I would have thought…

 

[Raphaz]

Ok.Tried Brantome’s solution as per his diagram.
Took a while as the LSXs apps are finicky if not to say utter crap, and its WiFi super spotty (even when in close proximity), and WiFi pairing between the two speakers is not reliable either.
I ended up connecting the master LSX via optical to the Wiim 2, which definitely helped. The L/R speaker pairing improved a bit also.
Connecting the two speakers with their optional interconnect (basically an Ethernet cable) seemed to solve that. Unfortunately the LSX also forgets its settings after being in standby for a minute, and/or after any one component connected to it (even the Wiim) is tuned off and back on.
Besides all the LSX nuisances, an approx 50 ms delay was introduced when playing Spotify, which I was able to correct with manual adjusting in the Wiim app. Yay!

The sound of the LSX improved slightly after skipping its wireless options - it may take me a while though to get used to what seems rather tamed upper/middle presentation compared to the Minimus at half their size and less then a tenth the price - overall it sure will take a lot more convincing for me to keep them.

Playing the TT through the same setup introduced a huge delay. So far I haven’t had enough patience and time to correct it.

So far I dare to conclude:
1. Shame on KEF! Don’t believe the hype! While the LSX seem great on paper and succeed in the visual department, the reality looks a lot less glamorous. Kudos to their marketing department though!
2. Congrats to Wiim! So far I’m really impressed with the Pro Plus, in many ways.

Thank you all for your advice and patience! I hope someone other than me can benefit from this conversation.

I will report back on my progress - hopefully soon.

 

[Raphaz]

I start wondering if the delay between all digital, wireless, wired, analog and streaming sources (and the required digital-analog translations) can be fully overcome.

Would the solution with having all sources going through the Wiim 1 first (with a switch box added - as per one of the suggestions above) really solve that?
And if it did, wouldn’t it require to adjust the delay again every time after switching sources? Not sure.
And I do wonder if the sound signature would be similar to when all sources are going through the Yamaha first.

Just try it out, you may say. Sure.

Overall though it starts to become a lot of gear, wires, trials, adjustments and switching. And with that, more risk of unevenness, spottiness, delay, outings and such is introduced.
And in my head this all starts to clash with my initial goal of simplifying things and reducing wires across the room, without sacrificing sound quality.

To be honest, I’m a bit lost and frustrated right now.

 

[Brantome]

As I have done on several occasions in similar situations, walk away and leave it for a few days, then come back and just try one source and see if there’s an improvement over your first attempt.

Going thru the WiiM 1 first then feeding the Yamaha (rather than the other way round) means the signal processing has been done by the WiiM and as it is controlling the sync to the second WiiM, I wouldn’t expect any delay (happy for someone to suggest otherwise). As for the Yamaha’s sound signature, it’ll still be doing the amplification and delivering the audio to your speakers, so again I’d hope that wouldn’t be impacted.

If that works out, I’d introduce the passive 4 way switch, feeding the first source into that and from there to the WiiM. Again, I wouldn’t expect that passive switch to introduce any delay or signal degradation.

If that works, then add your second source to the switch box and test. Then the remaining sources.

I think you’re getting even closer to a solution, but as I say if you’re currently frustrated, you’re better forgetting about it for a day or so and coming back refreshed. Good luck

 

[Raphaz]

Thanks for the encouraging words, Brantome.
A break is in order indeed. Besides, I work for a living.

Unfortunately I still have more questions:

Will I need to re-adjust the delay settings in the Wiim app whenever switching sources (this assumes the switching is administered via aforementioned four-way switch). Wouldn’t the delay adjustment/setting have to be different when I play Spotify vs when I play the TT?

Since it’s an analog source, what happens exactly with the TT signal when it goes through the Wiim 1 first? Does the Wiim know it’s receiving an analog signal and that it’s feeding an analog amplification and therefore just passes the signal on as is, unaltered, but is smart enough to automatically recognize that it needs to convert digital to analog when playing Spotify?

Also, wouldn’t the Wiim feed the Yamaha through the same intake for all sources, instead of taking advantage of (for example) the Yamaha’s phono stage (which is one of the best adjustable phono stages I’ve heard so far)?

Even if that all should work out, I keep wondering if there’s no easier way, with less gear, wires and pass-through stations involved. Just seems a bit crazy.
A more recent high end Yamaha integrated with high-res WiFi built in maybe - and good quality WiFi speakers (if there is such a thing)?

 

[Mr Ee]

Thanks for the encouraging words, Brantome.
A break is in order indeed. Besides, I work for a living.

Unfortunately I still have more questions:

Will I need to re-adjust the delay settings in the Wiim app whenever switching sources (this assumes the switching is administered via aforementioned four-way switch). Wouldn’t the delay adjustment/setting have to be different when I play Spotify vs when I play the TT?

Since it’s an analog source, what happens exactly with the TT signal when it goes through the Wiim 1 first? Does the Wiim know it’s receiving an analog signal and that it’s feeding an analog amplification and therefore just passes the signal on as is, unaltered, but is smart enough to automatically recognize that it needs to convert digital to analog when playing Spotify?

Also, wouldn’t the Wiim feed the Yamaha through the same intake for all sources, instead of taking advantage of (for example) the Yamaha’s phono stage (which is one of the best adjustable phono stages I’ve heard so far)?

Even if that all should work out, I keep wondering if there’s no easier way, with less gear, wires and pass-through stations involved. Just seems a bit crazy.
A more recent high end Yamaha integrated with high-res WiFi built in maybe - and good quality WiFi speakers (if there is such a thing)?

Regardless of what you send in to the wiim via the 4 way switch, it all comes in via the single analog in.
The analog input will always be converted to digital within the wiim. That digital signal can be sent on to wiim 2.
I wouldn't expect you to need to adjust any sync delay once set as the actual source is then immaterial as everything is digital within wiim 1, so line in vs spotify vs digital in etc. are effectively all the same when it comes time to output it.

Yes, you will no longer be using the yamaha's phono input if you plug the TT into the 4 way switcher and the wiim into the yamaha.
Note that you will need a phono stage between the TT and the switcher unless your TT also has a line out.

 

[Raphaz]

Regardless of what you send in to the wiim via the 4 way switch, it all comes in via the single analog in.
The analog input will always be converted to digital within the wiim. That digital signal can be sent on to wiim 2.
I wouldn't expect you to need to adjust any sync delay once set as the actual source is then immaterial as everything is digital within wiim 1, so line in vs spotify vs digital in etc. are effectively all the same when it comes time to output it.

Yes, you will no longer be using the yamaha's phono input if you plug the TT into the 4 way switcher and the wiim into the yamaha.
Note that you will need a phono stage between the TT and the switcher unless your TT also has a line out.

Let me recap.
All sources (except for the music streaming services, which are received by the Wiim 1 directly via WiFi) first go (via the switch) into the Wiim 1 (line in), where they are converted to digital, and the digital signal is passed on via WiFi to the Wiim 2, which will then feed the WiFi speakers.
At the same time, the same signals that are coming into the Wiim 1 will also be converted to analog and sent via line out from Wiim 1 to the Yamaha, which then feeds the wired speakers.
For the TT I need to add a phono pre before the switch – we keep adding gear.
Possible delay (if any) between the WiFi and analog speakers could be adjusted once in the Wiim app.

If this is all correct, all source signals will first be be processed and converted (at least once) by the Wiim – and that won't result in "colouring" the sound in some ways?
Anyway, the Yamaha basically ends up being nothing more than a power amp feeding the analog speakers.
Is it fair to assume that a lot of the Yamaha's sound signature is defined by how it handles the intake of the different sources, even before they're amplified? Wouldn't I loose a lot of its sound signature (most obvious with the TT of course)?

 

[Wiimer]

Let me recap.
All sources (except for the music streaming services, which are received by the Wiim 1 directly via WiFi) first go (via the switch) into the Wiim 1 (line in), where they are converted to digital, and the digital signal is passed on via WiFi to the Wiim 2, which will then feed the WiFi speakers.
At the same time, the same signals that are coming into the Wiim 1 will also be converted to analog and sent via line out from Wiim 1 to the Yamaha, which then feeds the wired speakers.
For the TT I need to add a phono pre before the switch – we keep adding gear.
Possible delay (if any) between the WiFi and analog speakers could be adjusted once in the Wiim app.

If this is all correct, all source signals will first be be processed and converted (at least once) by the Wiim – and that won't result in "colouring" the sound in some ways?
Anyway, the Yamaha basically ends up being nothing more than a power amp feeding the analog speakers.
Is it fair to assume that a lot of the Yamaha's sound signature is defined by how it handles the intake of the different sources, even before they're amplified? Wouldn't I loose a lot of its sound signature (most obvious with the TT of course)?

And I think that's exactly what this diagram I proposed in the first place. ?

Wiim Pro output from Line In to both Line Out and AirPlay Receiver

I have a recently-purchased Wiim Pro connected to an older Pioneer receiver and I have a Sonos Era 100 connected via wifi in a different room. I can get audio simultaneously from an app on phone to both the speakers connected to the Pioneer receiver and to the Sonos speaker. I can play from CD...

forum.wiimhome.com

In this connection example, WiiM AutoSense automatically switches inputs.

I don't think the WiiM will color the sound. But if you feel that the sound of the Yamaha and the WiiM is different, why not use the EQ to recreate the sound of the Yamaha?

First, use a microphone and a phone app (or PC) to measure the sound of your Yamaha. Next, measure the sound of the WiiM under the same conditions. Overlay the two measurements and adjust the difference in the WiiM PEQ. In my opinion, this is worth a try.

Edit;
If possible, it is better to play a sweep tone on TT.

 

[Mr Ee]

Your recap is sound (pun intended).
As for the 2nd part, re. Yamaha sound signature, I can't comment I'm afraid.
I can only say that it seems like a number of users on this forum seem to be quite happy with their TT going via their wiim pro plus - but whether that's because they are still using their TT line out (so internal to TT phono stage) or the same (external) phono stage as before I don't know.

 

[Raphaz]

Microphone? Measure the sound?

 

[Wiimer]

Microphone? Measure the sound?

Yes, since you are only comparing Yamaha and WiiM sounds, you can also measure with the phone's built-in microphone. If you are interested, please give it a try.