What speakers are you using?

[wunderkind]

I had those B&W speakers many years ago. There have a lovely warm British sound that I feel the later models seemed to have deviated. Your room size and configuration affect your experience of course. IIRC I did add a sub. It was an Energy 10.3 model. I cross-overed at around 80hz because the 601s (and most typical bookshelves) run-off start higher than the lowest rated hz. I'd suggest you play around with the config. Placement of the sub is also important.

TBH I think the gap for typical bookshelf and a sub is a bit too wide to ensure seamless handoff. I prefer my subs to come in at around 40hz and below. Making it work at higher hz results to 'hearing' the sub as opposed to feeling the low frequency. A well set-up speaker/sub configure would result in their "disappearance". Music should waft towards and envelope you. Not sure if I am explaining it right and I think I may have deviated from the OP topic.

 

[jacksnbox]

I'm just using Sony Ss-CS5 speakers with a Jamo 10" sub. And I'm in hog heaven since getting the Pro....any more would be a waste for my aging ears

​

 

[wiimamp user]

@wunderkind
@jacksnbox
Thank you so much for your help.
Highly appreciate it.
I will look out for a good sub..thanks to all you're help I can make a good choice now.
I will play around with the sub to set it up to my preference.

You're right the b&w have a warm excellent sound

 

[wiimamp user]

Last questions.. if i may..does the sub has to have LFE input? And if so ..why?

 

[harkpabst]

Judging by the measurements taken by @onlyoneme the WiiM Amp features a very steep subwoofer crossover. High pass and low pass appear to be 8th order (48 dB/oct). You don't need the sub to add any low pass filtering on its own and you don't want that for maximum flexibility.

If it is possible to place a single sub exactly in the middle between your speakers I have had good results with crossover frequencies as high as 150 Hz. Impossible to localize the sub as a separate sound source. With less ideal placement, results will vary. Luckily, the WiiM Amp enables you to freely set the crossover frequency between 200 250 Hz and 30 Hz (I think). Just try out what works best for you.

A rather high crossover frequency (if possible) relieves the small main speakers from bass duties, noticeably reducing distortion and improving midrange performance. It also reduces the demand on output power from the WiiM Amp, again potentially reducing distortion. If you want to be able to try out higher crossover frequencies, you'll want to make sure that the sub's internal low pass does not interfere with the low pass implemented by the Amp. Having an LFE input makes sure the WiiM is in full control of what's happening.

Is it a requirement? No. Is it desirable? Probably yes.

 

[TimWiim]

I am using Kef LS50 Meta’s mounted on the S2 stands about 2.2M apart in a room 4x6M, and about 0.3M from wall, I find them to be excellent, very neutral, can listen for long periods, no problem driving them, they can be very loud. Bass is also good, i have added a bit of PEQ at 65hz to match the speaker curve, (looking forward to PEQ update and correction) i do plan on adding a sub, have demo’d three, Rel T-Zero, 5TX and KC62, yeah a major range in price !! The dealer was impressed with the set ups and the ability to do the Bass mgmt /cross over and just turn sub/on off remotely and tweak gain….. have not yet decided on Sub…

 

[SeeRM114]

My speakers are the Gallo Acoustics Nucleus Solo model from about 1997 (my profile pic). I had been driving them with a small single-input amp from Virtue Audio (using a Tripath chip). I also had a very beefy external power supply. I agree totally with this comment from @Woody - "The convenience of the streaming amp far outweighs any sound deficit for me". I really hadn't been using them much in the past few years.

So - no - the bass response is certainly not as good but these old speakers sound pretty close to what they could do with my previous stand-alone amps - especially in the mids and highs. And I love the convenience of putting a usb stick on the back and having all my music available that way. And now my phone app lets me play whatever streaming services I have through these speakers - seamlessly. I am also impressed with the responsiveness of the company to bugs and feature requests.

 

[wiimamp user]

@harkpabst @TimWiim
Thank you very much for youre help. In a while i will make my purchase. Im sure a sub can have a big influence on the sound. I will have to set up the sub correctly but i will do my best. What is the setting phase for?

@SeeRM114
Totally agree with you. Its a great amp with all the possibilities. The hardware is important these days but also the software. WIIM has done this very good that's why I choose their product.

 

[harkpabst]

What is the setting phase for?

Some devices will invert the "absolute phase" of the input signal. This means that when e.g. a bass drum kicks in, the initial movement of the speaker cone will be inwards, not outwards. Generally, this doesn't matter. Few people claim to be able to hear the difference, very few might even really be sensitive to it, but it's common scientific understanding that the absolute phase doesn't matter.

However, if you add a subwoofer to the mix, then there is always a narrow band around the crossover frequency where both, main speakers and sub are contributing to the acoustical output. If the speaker cones are moving out of phase (one in, one out) they would cancel out each other. When integrating a subwoofer, listen to some music and try out both settings, 0° and 180°, either in the WiiM Home App or on the back of the subwoofer. Whatever results in louder bass is correct.

The result might still not be perfect. Different distances to main speakers and sub will also cause a delay or a phase difference, but usually lower than 180°. DSP processing in a subwoofer will add more delay. As of now it is not possible to correct for this delay in the WiiM Home App. It would be nice if this was added for the WiiM Amp in a future release.

The upcoming room correction feature might help a little, but cannot remove the root cause.

 

[Steve Woodhouse]

Some devices will invert the "absolute phase" of the input signal. This means that when e.g. a bass drum kicks in, the initial movement of the speaker cone will be inwards, not outwards. Generally, this doesn't matter. Few people claim to be able to hear the difference, very few might even really be sensitive to it, but it's common scientific understanding that the absolute phase doesn't matter.

However, if you add a subwoofer to the mix, then there is always a narrow band around the crossover frequency where both, main speakers and sub are contributing to the acoustical output. If the speaker cones are moving out of phase (one in, one out) they would cancel out each other. When integrating a subwoofer, listen to some music and try out both settings, 0° and 180°, either in the WiiM Home App or on the back of the subwoofer. Whatever results in louder bass is correct.

The result might still not be perfect. Different distances to main speakers and sub will also cause a delay or a phase difference, but usually lower than 180°. DSP processing in a subwoofer will add more delay. As of now it is not possible to correct for this delay in the WiiM Home App. It would be nice if this was added for the WiiM Amp in a future release.

The upcoming room correction feature might help a little, but cannot remove the root cause.

I feel the difference can be overstated. If I may give an example.

In most 2.1 systems the sub will be between the mains or just outside. Let’s say it’s outside to the left. It’s unlikely to be further away from your left speaker than your right.

So, unless you’re listening at dead centre with your head in a vice, the time delay difference between left and right speakers is unlikely to be less than between either speaker and your sub.

Okay so far? Right. Now listen to something in mono.

Any phase issues caused by the difference in distance between your sub and left (or right) speaker, has to be less than the issue caused by the difference in distance between left and right speaker.

And they’re producing exactly the same sound across their entire frequency response, not just the relatively small crossover area.

So whose had a phase issue listening to Pet Sounds whilst sat slightly to one side of the sofa?

 

[wiimamp user]

@harkpabst @Steve Woodhouse .
Thank you so much for you,re help.
Here in the neighbourhoud someone sells a second handed Canton AS22 sc. I ask myself how much difference does it make choosing such an second handed device( she asks 80 Euro) or spending lets say 300 or more.
This Canton is produced in 2004 i think it costed new 400 Euro.
What are you,re thoughts about this? I mean when youre on a thight budget such prices would help a lot. I would save more money for an new and better device but always i ask myself how much difference can it make by spending much more money( 300/500)?

Is it a little difference or HUGE? when listening to music or watching movies. Its important the device is quite responsive when listening to music.

 

[harkpabst]

I feel the difference can be overstated. If I may give an example.

In most 2.1 systems the sub will be between the mains or just outside. Let’s say it’s outside to the left. It’s unlikely to be further away from your left speaker than your right.

So, unless you’re listening at dead centre with your head in a vice, the time delay difference between left and right speakers is unlikely to be less than between either speaker and your sub.

Okay so far? Right. Now listen to something in mono.

Any phase issues caused by the difference in distance between your sub and left (or right) speaker, has to be less than the issue caused by the difference in distance between left and right speaker.

And they’re producing exactly the same sound across their entire frequency response, not just the relatively small crossover area.

So whose had a phase issue listening to Pet Sounds whilst sat slightly to one side of the sofa?

Generally agreed. The importance (or lack) of exact delay settings can only be rated in the context of actual crossover frequency, filter slope, speaker placement and listening distance. I've seen people placing the sub behind their sofa ...

I do advocate the use of higher than usual x-over frequencies with small main speakers, but with a mono sub this only makes sense with ideally symmetrical placement. 80 Hz is not a hard and sound limit, but came from THX specifications (I think). It's been chosen there for a reason, though, and might be the best starting point in many real life situations. In my main system I run a Lyngdorf amp with stereo Lyngdorf subs and a pair of KEF LS50 Meta, crossed at 200 Hz. It's amazing how good this combo sounds even at very high levels. The Lyngdorf amp has just any feature you could ask for when it comes to sub management.

@wiimamp user, I'm not a big fan of Canton speakers in general. 80 € looks like a decent price, at least. Give it a try (and remember to turn the crossover knob fully clockwise when mated to the WiiM Amp.

 

[wiimamp user]

@harkpabst . Thanks for your reply.
I think in gonna pass on the Canton sub. Save some more money for a better device.

 

[wiimamp user]

Think i made a choice. A second handed i,ve seen for 75 Euro. If..the device is ok and If im not to late. First i want to contact the seller.
Its the Polk Audio PSW10. New they are much more expensive but still within the budget.
Frequency range is between 35 tot 200 Hz.
Its a small sub..50 watts are enough for my room.It seems to be a responsive sub..good for music and movies.
The low pass filter goes only to 80 Hz. Would this be ok? I think its enough for my B&W 601 speakers dont you think? How do i connect it to the AMP? It has a line in( white, red RCA)..how do i connect this to the amp?
Thanks in advance if you want to take the time to respond.

 

[harkpabst]

The low pass filter goes only to 80 Hz. Would this be ok? I think its enough for my B&W 601 speakers dont you think? How do i connect it to the AMP? It has a line in( white, red RCA)..how do i connect this to the amp?

The Low pass setting should be adjustable from 80 Hz up to 160 Hz. Turn the knob fully clockwise (160 Hz). You don't want the built-in low pass to get into the way of the WiiM Amp lowpass.

Set the volume knob to the 12 o'clock position (white mark pointing straight upwards).

Set the "phase switch" on the sub to 0⁰ (pointing upwards) and the power switch to ON or AUTO, whatever you prefer. I would try the AUTO setting first and see if the sub wakes up reliably when music is played at low levels.

Connect any reasonable single channel RCA cable from the WiiM Amp's sub out to either the left or right line-in connector (white or red, it really doesn't matter). You do not need a splitter cable (Y-style cable). Amazon Basics subwoofer cables are cheap and of good quality. There's nothing special to a subwoofer cable, except it's just a single run (mono, not stereo).

In the WiiM Home App open your amp's settings and enter the subwoofer menu. Set the Sub Output toggle switch to "on". Listen to some music. Play around a bit with the level slider. You want more bass extension, of course, but the sub should not stand out, but integrate smoothly.

Change the phase setting in the WiiM Home App from 0⁰ to 180⁰ and keep the setting that sounds louder. Radjust level, if necessary.

Do you have room for the sub in the middle between your speakers? If so, you should try crossover frequency settings in the range from 80 Hz to maybe 150 Hz. Changes made in the app will be applied on the fly, so you can instantly listen to the result. Again, you don't want the sub to stand out, but to integrate seamlessly. Playing some music with a prominent amount of acoustic double bass can help to determine, if the crossover frequency is set too high.

If you need to place the sub outside the speakers' base then rather try crossover frequencies in the range of 70 Hz to 90 Hz. Wit your speakers (DM 601, first generation? Not S2 or S3?) I would definitely not go lower than 60 Hz. But you are free to try it out.

You can adjust these settings any time. Just don't fall for the behavior of adjusting them differently for different kinds of music. If you feel like you want more or less bass for movies or acoustic music, rock or electronica, just use EQ presets instead.

 

[harkpabst]

PS:
Most of this information can actually be found in WiiM's Audio Help Desk. I should have simply linked to this page:

How to Connect Your Subwoofer with the WiiM Amp or WiiM Amp Pro?

TABLE OF CONTENTS Connect a Powered Subwoofer to Your WiiM Amp or WiiM Amp Pro Advanced Settings for Sub Out Subwoofer Level Crossover Frequency Phase Adjustment Subwoofer & Speaker Sync Subwoofer Bypass Mode Main Speakers Output Bass ...

faq.wiimhome.com

I agree to mostly everything.

 

[wiimamp user]

Thanks soo much for this! Highly appreciated.
I will try to buy the second handed Polk PSW10 now..

 

[Wiimer]

The Low pass setting should be adjustable from 80 Hz up to 160 Hz. Turn the knob fully clockwise (160 Hz). You don't want the built-in low pass to get into the way of the WiiM Amp lowpass.

Set the volume knob to the 12 o'clock position (white mark pointing straight upwards).

Set the "phase switch" on the sub to 0⁰ (pointing upwards) and the power switch to ON or AUTO, whatever you prefer. I would try the AUTO setting first and see if the sub wakes up reliably when music is played at low levels.

Connect any reasonable single channel RCA cable from the WiiM Amp's sub out to either the left or right line-in connector (white or red, it really doesn't matter). You do not need a splitter cable (Y-style cable). Amazon Basics subwoofer cables are cheap and of good quality. There's nothing special to a subwoofer cable, except it's just a single run (mono, not stereo).

In the WiiM Home App open your amp's setting and enter the subwoofer menu. Set the Sub Output toggle switch to "on". Listen to some music. Play around a bit with the level slider. You want more bass extension, of course, but the sub should not stand out, but integrate smoothly.

Change the phase setting in the WiiM Home App from 0⁰ to 180⁰ and keep the setting that sounds louder. Readjust level, if necessary.

Do you have room for the sub in the middle between your speakers? If so, you should try crossover settings in the range from 80 Hz to 150 Hz. Changes made in the app will be applied on the fly, so you can instantly listen to the result. Again, you don't want the sub to stand out, bit to integrate seamlessly. Playing some music with a prominent amount of acoustic double bass can help to determine, if the crossover frequency is set too high.

If you need to place the sub outside the speakers' base then rather try crossover frequencies in the range of 70 Hz to 90 Hz. Wit your speakers (DM 601, first generation? Not S2 or S3?) I would definitely not go lower than 60 Hz. But you are free to try it out.

You can adjust these settings any time. Just don't fall for the behavior of adjusting them differently for different kinds of music. If you feel like you want more or less bass for movies or acoustic music, rock or electronica, just use EQ presets instead.

Your suggestion is great, but I can't agree with the recommended subwoofer cable. Amazon basic subwoofer cables are copper-clad steel (aluminium) conductors. I would recommend other cheap OFC cables.

 

[harkpabst]

Your suggestion is great, but I can't agree with the recommended subwoofer cable. Amazon basic subwoofer cables are copper-clad steel (aluminium) conductors. I would recommend other cheap OFC cables.

Have to check that, I was very sure they are not. Otherwise I would not have recommended them, of course.

 

[Wiimer]

Have to check that, I was very sure they are not. Otherwise I would not have recommended them, of course.

I can't find any material description on Amazon in the United States. However, in the Japan catalog the material is listed.











Information as far as I know.

2RCA cable = OFC
Coaxial cable = clad
1RCA (Sub) cable = clad
Speaker cable (16 gauge) =clad