“Loudness” option - equal loudness curves based EQ for low level listening.

[Matt_Holland]

Maybe this could tie in with the upcoming room EQ feature because the feature will obtain an approximate SPL of the speaker system for a given device volume setting. Therefore a set of Fletcher Munson equal loudness contours could be applied as an EQ based on the device volume being at certain levels.

Such a feature would massively elevate low volume level listening by adapting the system frequency response to the natural changing efficiency of the human hearing system as volume level changes.

 

[wiimamp user]

What are your favorite presets in the amp for listening and listening at low volume.?
The ones that the app provides i mean ..

 

[Matt_Holland]

What are your favorite presets in the amp for listening and listening at low volume.?
The ones that the app provides i mean ..

I haven't tried any presets. The feature I'm requesting is for the EQ curve to automatically adjust depending on the volume level the amplifier is set to, therefore adjusting to how our hearing sensitivity to different frequencies changes with SPL. You can see from the graph below that the curve changes with SPL.

Practically, the solution may be for there to be just 3 or 4 EQ curves that are assigned to different voume settings. The complication comes from normalising the volume level of different sources and setting a suitable baseline offset so that it works well for low and high sensitivity speakers and/or nearfield or far-field listening positions. Hence my above suggestion for the feature to take advantage of any room measurement feature that might come in the future. Faiiling that, a simple slider control to adjust the amount of effect applied could work.

The key to this feaure is that the user chooses to enable it once and then doesn't need to think about it again. Then, when they are listening at low levels, the sound is automatically adjusted.

Meridian Audio's DSP active speakers have this feature and it is not even a user option. Simply, when their speakers are played at low levels, Fletcher Munson based EQ curves are applied to the signal. Most people don't even know it's even a feature. At the lowest volume levels the frequencies below 100Hz are boosted by over 10dB, yet it just sounds natural.

 

[wiimamp user]

I haven't tried any presets. The feature I'm requesting is for the EQ curve to automatically adjust depending on the volume level the amplifier is set to, therefore adjusting to how our hearing sensitivity to different frequencies changes with SPL. You can see from the graph below that the curve changes with SPL.

Practically, the solution may be for there to be just 3 or 4 EQ curves that are assigned to different voume settings. The complication comes from normalising the volume level of different sources and setting a suitable baseline offset so that it works well for low and high sensitivity speakers and/or nearfield or far-field listening positions. Hence my above suggestion for the feature to take advantage of any room measurement feature that might come in the future. Faiiling that, a simple slider control to adjust the amount of effect applied could work.

The key to this feaure is that the user chooses to enable it once and then doesn't need to think about it again. Then, when they are listening at low levels, the sound is automatically adjusted.

Meridian Audio's DSP active speakers have this feature and it is not even a user option. Simply, when their speakers are played at low levels, Fletcher Munson based EQ curves are applied to the signal. Most people don't even know it's even a feature. At the lowest volume levels the frequencies below 100Hz are boosted by over 10dB, yet it just sounds natural.

View attachment 5550

I would appreciate this feature for sure..

 

[Petevid]

Is this similar to the variable loudness control feature Yamaha amps have? You set it once at your chosen maximum volume then as the volume reduces the bass response increases.

 

[planetti]

This request was already mentioned in

Loudness mode (Equal-loudness contour, or Fletcher–Munson curves)

The human ear can't hear bass or Treble very well at lower volumes. Thus, modern devices with DSP implement Equal Loudness EQ curves to make the perceived volume be the same across a wider range of frequencies at multiple volume levels. This would be super helpful to implement in the WIIM side...

forum.wiimhome.com

Equal Loudness Compensation Automatic Adjustment - EQ

Hello @WiiM Team It would be great to incorporate an automatic Loudness Compensation based on the equal loudness curves : https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/A-Method-of-Equal-Loudness-Compensation-for-Systems-Hawker-Wang/6a3e255697686f9fbeb789fda4aa9c58595b9286 That would be really...

forum.wiimhome.com

Loudness EQ based on volume setting

Sometimes people want to listen at low volumes but still have it sound similar to listening at normal volume. Unfortunately our ears cannot hear bass and treble as well as midrange at these lower volumes: Equal-loudness contour - Wikipedia. RME solved this problem with a "loudness" feature...

forum.wiimhome.com

To implement this you need only one (or two) gain dynamic PEQ.

Please bring this topic forward by voting up (on the right side).

 

[harkpabst]

This request was already mentioned in

Loudness mode (Equal-loudness contour, or Fletcher–Munson curves)

The human ear can't hear bass or Treble very well at lower volumes. Thus, modern devices with DSP implement Equal Loudness EQ curves to make the perceived volume be the same across a wider range of frequencies at multiple volume levels. This would be super helpful to implement in the WIIM side...

forum.wiimhome.com

Equal Loudness Compensation Automatic Adjustment - EQ

Hello @WiiM Team It would be great to incorporate an automatic Loudness Compensation based on the equal loudness curves : https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/A-Method-of-Equal-Loudness-Compensation-for-Systems-Hawker-Wang/6a3e255697686f9fbeb789fda4aa9c58595b9286 That would be really...

forum.wiimhome.com

Loudness EQ based on volume setting

Sometimes people want to listen at low volumes but still have it sound similar to listening at normal volume. Unfortunately our ears cannot hear bass and treble as well as midrange at these lower volumes: Equal-loudness contour - Wikipedia. RME solved this problem with a "loudness" feature...

forum.wiimhome.com

To implement this you need only one (or two) gain dynamic PEQ.

Please bring this topic forward by voting up (on the right side).

The implications, downsides and potential problems with this request have been discussed in length in those mentioned threads. Let me name just one: different speaker sensitivity (an issue that e.g. Meridian did not have with their active speakers).

After careful consideration I still don't think that this feature offers enough of a benefit (compared to a simple bass and treble boost EQ) to justify the effort and potential unintended misuse.

I would like to add that despite of the scientific background imposed by mentioning Fletcher Munson curves, this would still be just a convenience feature. There is nothing "aurally correct" about applying this EQ (or "aurally incorrect" about not doing so. The result is a sound event that simply cannot happen in real life. I'm not strictly against rasing bass and treble frequencies when limited to low level listening. I just think that doing this even half decent takes much more effort that most would think and that effort could be better used elsewhere in development.

 

[planetti]

Hi harkpabst,

the adaption is done automatically, so the misuse argument is void. The user may only set his individual (letś say 80dB) level, additionally the intensity rate.

Have you ever used e.g. RME adi dac having that functionality? Very convenient feature. This is more realistic sound impression than only reducing the level.

Of course, an adaption to the different song levels and source levels should also be included ...

 

[harkpabst]

the adaption is done automatically, so the misuse argument is void. The user may only set his individual (letś say 80dB) level, additionally the intensity rate.

Well, what is "misuse" anyway in this case, you should have asked. I was referring to exact that scenario, automatic adaption without the user being aware it's happening. Yes, there could be an on/off toggle switch that can be overlooked and the question of the default setting arises.

Have you ever used e.g. RME adi dac having that functionality? Very convenient feature. This is more realistic sound impression than only reducing the level.

No, I don't feel the need to. As you said, purely a convenience feature to improve perceived illusion. Nothing "scientifically correct".

Of course, an adaption to the different song levels and source levels should also be included ...

Sounds super easy to do. Not. Normalisation doesn't even work very well with streaming services, where the entire song isfully known beforehand. How well could a playback device adapt to songs? Normalisation per song or per album? Per playlist? Good luck.

Up to now WiiM doesn't even have a workable way to level adjust different sources. And I have a feeling why they didn't dive too deep into it, yet. Unfortunately, sources like WiFi or HDMI ARC are not really one source with a constant max. level. There could be other devices connected to the TV that connects to your amp that differ in level. The same is true for WiFi, trivially.

Having users input their speaker sensitivity would be catastrophic at best. This could be somewhat mitigated when room correction arrives, but that depends much on what mic will be used for this.

We haven't touched on the topic of required amplifier power and if there should be a full competition according to Fletcher Munson curves (which are averages, anyway), 20 Hz to 20 kHz ...

In the end I wouldn't mind if WiiM gave you a loudness feature (as long as.I can switch it off). I'm just explaining why I think that it is less precise and less useful as many might think. I'd just like to see WiiM spending their engineering resources differently.

Everyone is free to come to different conclusions and vote this request up, of course. I just won't, like with those issued before.

 

[cooky560]

Well, what is "misuse" anyway in this case, you should have asked. I was referring to exact that scenario, automatic adaption without the user being aware it's happening. Yes, there could be an on/off toggle switch that can be overlooked and the question of the default setting arises.


No, I don't feel the need to. As you said, purely a convenience feature to improve perceived illusion. Nothing "scientifically correct".


Sounds super easy to do. Not. Normalisation doesn't even work very well with streaming services, where the entire song isfully known beforehand. How well could a playback device adapt to songs? Normalisation per song or per album? Per playlist? Good luck.

Up to now WiiM doesn't even have a workable way to level adjust different sources. And I have a feeling why they didn't dive too deep into it, yet. Unfortunately, sources like WiFi or HDMI ARC are not really one source with a constant max. level. There could be other devices connected to the TV that connects to your amp that differ in level. The same is true for WiFi, trivially.

Having users input their speaker sensitivity would be catastrophic at best. This could be somewhat mitigated when room correction arrives, but that depends much on what mic will be used for this.

We haven't touched on the topic of required amplifier power and if there should be a full competition according to Fletcher Munson curves (which are averages, anyway), 20 Hz to 20 kHz ...

In the end I wouldn't mind if WiiM gave you a loudness feature (as long as.I can switch it off). I'm just explaining why I think that it is less precise and less useful as many might think. I'd just like to see WiiM spending their engineering resources differently.

Everyone is free to come to different conclusions and vote this request up, of course. I just won't, like with those issued before.

I don't see any any need for a user to select their speaker sensitivity, most amps have been able to calculate how to feed a speaker automatically since the 70s.

 

[harkpabst]

I don't see any any need for a user to select their speaker sensitivity, most amps have been able to calculate how to feed a speaker automatically since the 70s.

Sorry, I don't understand what you are referring to.

An amplifier has no way of knowing what SPL (average or actual value) is present in the listening position by means of any calculation. That's impossible.

 

[wiimamp user]

What would be the ´best´ eq setting then for low volume listening? Loudness?

 

[cooky560]

Sorry, I don't understand what you are referring to.

An amplifier has no way of knowing what SPL (average or actual value) is present in the listening position by means of any calculation. That's impossible.

Ignore me I was thinking of impedance, sorry!

 

[ehowarth]

An amplifier has no way of knowing what SPL (average or actual value) is present in the listening position by means of any calculation. That's impossible.

You measure SPL at your listening position. This correlates WiiM volume setting to actual output via your amplifier and speakers.

WiiM would then treat 70 dB as the zero on this curve:

 

[harkpabst]

You measure SPL at your listening position. This correlates WiiM volume setting to actual output via your amplifier and speakers.

WiiM would then treat 70 dB as the zero on this curve:
View attachment 8291

Btw:

An amplifier has no way of knowing what SPL (average or actual value) is present in the listening position by means of any calculation. That's impossible.

That's all I said. Isn't that very clear?

 

[Doublej]

Btw:

An amplifier has no way of knowing what SPL (average or actual value) is present in the listening position by means of any calculation. That's impossible.

That's all I said. Isn't that very clear?

The amplifier doesn't but your iPhone could know. WiiM could leverage their Room Correction software and use an iPhone microphone to determine the output volume for particular WiiM volume control settings with the amplifier in use and then apply the appropriate loudness curve.

 

[harkpabst]

The amplifier doesn't but your iPhone could know. WiiM could leverage their Room Correction software and use an iPhone microphone to determine the output volume for particular WiiM volume control settings with the amplifier in use and then apply the appropriate loudness curve.

Back in March (when this thread had been updated) room correction was not available. Even now I doubt that the calibration of iPhone microphones allows reliable absolute measurements of SPL. And that's what would be needed, a high quality absolute measurement.

 

[MCG555]

Back in March (when this thread had been updated) room correction was not available. Even now I doubt that the calibration of iPhone microphones allows reliable absolute measurements of SPL. And that's what would be needed, a high quality absolute measurement.

Not sure!
In earlier days I had to record environmental noise levels for official purposes. Governmental organizations accepted recordings with an iphone (they tested its performance and accuracy calibration). This is not common! So it musst be pretty good.

 

[Jls]

They are good, but more importantly, their characteristics are known.

 

[Smartplug]

There’s graphic eq that say loudness. I prefer dynamic loudness that if you increase volume loudness decreases.