5.1 experience

[Newb0815]

Hi all,

I currently own a Wiim Ultra attached to an RME Dac and a Purifi power amp for critical stereo listening.

I have been watching Wiim and the 5.1 capabilities for over a year now as I would ideally like to use a single system for both HT and HiFi. Currently, TV and HT run completely separately via a Sonos system (Arc Ultra with Sonos Sub and rears). The fact that I recently experienced the limit of the Sonos subwoofer capabilities (pumping audibly) led me to overthink a Wiim HT setup again (and of course, it is a hobby and I like to change and try things all the time ).

A big advantage of a Sonos system is its usability (at least for HT purposes when there is not much need for the app) as well as its great dialogue enhancement functions, night modes etc.

A potential Wiim surround setup for me would probably include Wiim Sound Lites as Center and surround speakers. My fronts are Klipsch Forte IVs (sub is an Elac Rs 700). Since I read that in a Wiim surround setup, EQ and room calibration are disabled, I am a little afraid that I might have the theoretically better speaker and sub config compared to Sonos but that harmonisation of those speakers as well as dialogue clarity might be much worse than with my current Sonos setup. Therefore, I would highly appreciate your experience with a Wiim surround setup, particular in respect to the points mentioned above.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Wiimer]

Hi all,

I currently own a Wiim Ultra attached to an RME Dac and a Purifi power amp for critical stereo listening.

I have been watching Wiim and the 5.1 capabilities for over a year now as I would ideally like to use a single system for both HT and HiFi. Currently, TV and HT run completely separately via a Sonos system (Arc Ultra with Sonos Sub and rears). The fact that I recently experienced the limit of the Sonos subwoofer capabilities (pumping audibly) led me to overthink a Wiim HT setup again (and of course, it is a hobby and I like to change and try things all the time ).

A big advantage of a Sonos system is its usability (at least for HT purposes when there is not much need for the app) as well as its great dialogue enhancement functions, night modes etc.

A potential Wiim surround setup for me would probably include Wiim Sound Lites as Center and surround speakers. My fronts are Klipsch Forte IVs (sub is an Elac Rs 700). Since I read that in a Wiim surround setup, EQ and room calibration are disabled, I am a little afraid that I might have the theoretically better speaker and sub config compared to Sonos but that harmonisation of those speakers as well as dialogue clarity might be much worse than with my current Sonos setup. Therefore, I would highly appreciate your experience with a Wiim surround setup, particular in respect to the points mentioned above.

Thanks in advance!

Sorry it's me again.

Based on my experience, using the WiiM Sound as the center speaker made the difference in sound color compared to the front speakers quite noticeable. At least in the current state where EQ adjustment isn't possible, I wouldn't recommend it. However, whether you and your family would mind it is something you'd have to try.

Since WiiM's wireless Dolby has a virtual center function, I think it's better to try a 4.1ch setup without a center speaker first. If you use the WiiM Sound as a surround speaker, I suspect it might not be as noticeable. (I haven't tried it yet, so I can't be certain.)

That said, as I mentioned in another thread, there are several other potential issues that could arise, so I recommend considering this carefully.

 

[Newb0815]

Thanks a lot again, Wiimer!

As mentioned in the other thread, a dedicated Center speaker is a requirement for me, particularly if EQ e.g. for vocal boost (that I tried yesterday and which was ok) is not available.

I hope Wiim will come around with a new solution/product soon to bring high-quality HiFi and HT together!

Merry Christmas to everyone!

 

[rccarguy]

I'd just get a AVR. Connect the Wiim to the AVR via coaxial, and plug your speakers into the AVR.

Wiims are stereo products, and any multi channel is a bodge around method at best

 

[Newb0815]

I'd just get a AVR. Connect the Wiim to the AVR via coaxial, and plug your speakers into the AVR.

Wiims are stereo products, and any multi channel is a bodge around method at best

That way I would be using a mediocre DAC and power amp for my speakers - that is what I specifically try NOT to do (both the RME DAC and my Purifi power amp measure significantly better than AVRs). Apart from the DAC question, I would have to hardwire all speakers and buy a dedicated Center speaker (which can realistically never be used for anything different other than a Wiim Sound). Only Sony and Yamaha offer wireless rear speaker solutions, but the Sony does NOT offer a pre-out while the better Yahama AVRs with pre-out simply don’t fit due to their size.

But of course your thought is absolutely justified; I checked all kinds of possible alternatives about a year ago. I think this a a gap between HiFi and HT that (hopefully) some players on the market will soon close.

 

[rccarguy]

That way I would be using a mediocre DAC and power amp for my speakers - that is what I specifically try NOT to do (both the RME DAC and my Purifi power amp measure significantly better than AVRs). Apart from the DAC question, I would have to hardwire all speakers and buy a dedicated Center speaker (which can realistically never be used for anything different other than a Wiim Sound). Only Sony and Yamaha offer wireless rear speaker solutions, but the Sony does NOT offer a pre-out while the better Yahama AVRs with pre-out simply don’t fit due to their size.

But of course your thought is absolutely justified; I checked all kinds of possible alternatives about a year ago. I think this a a gap between HiFi and HT that (hopefully) some players on the market will soon close.

Just saying for a 5.1 system, that's the recommended solution, as AVR's decode all movie soundtracks, don't discard LFE info, can downmix surround formats back to stereo or keep native etc.

Using multiple stereo streamers to get it pseudo 5.1, when it won't be DTS at all, and suspect in processing, all the extra hassle , compared to one box AVR/AV pre amp which is designed to do that etc..

I've got stereo systems and a 9.3.4 AV pre amp seperates system, Wiim Ultra, Squeezeboxes etc, and getting Wiim native 5.1 is a bodge around.

Another alternative is use a AV pre amp instead of a AVR. Then have power amplifiers to suit whether two monoblocs, three monoblocs, a five channel, 11 channel, or 13 channel etc.

 

[Newb0815]

Thanks, I absolutely get your point and agree. It’s just that it also seems an extra hassle to really get a system that ticks all boxes. The usual AVRs are all still Class A/B, thus the (more or less idle) power consumption just for normal TV use would be extreme already. Plus I would have a huge additional device, plus wiring the rear boxes (to my knowledge, a wireless solution is only available from Yamaha and Sony, Sony not having a pre-out). More modern devices like the JBL AVRs look great and are Class D-powered but lack pre-outs. Canton does have a more modern „small“ AVR but it also lacks a pre-out.

It seems that most AVRs haven‘t changed during the past 10-20 years although available technical solutions as well as customer requirements have changed - they appear a little as dinosaurs to me. I really hope (and expect) that new devices (maybe from Wiim!?) will come soon.

Kind regards

 

[goodmore]

Thanks, I absolutely get your point and agree. It’s just that it also seems an extra hassle to really get a system that ticks all boxes. The usual AVRs are all still Class A/B, thus the (more or less idle) power consumption just for normal TV use would be extreme already. Plus I would have a huge additional device, plus wiring the rear boxes (to my knowledge, a wireless solution is only available from Yamaha and Sony, Sony not having a pre-out). More modern devices like the JBL AVRs look great and are Class D-powered but lack pre-outs. Canton does have a more modern „small“ AVR but it also lacks a pre-out.

It seems that most AVRs haven‘t changed during the past 10-20 years although available technical solutions as well as customer requirements have changed - they appear a little as dinosaurs to me. I really hope (and expect) that new devices (maybe from Wiim!?) will come soon.

Kind regards

A surround sound WiiM? It would be much easier.

 

[Newb0815]

A surround sound WiiM? It would be much easier.

That’s would I would expect and hope for. The fact that Wiim has integrated the feature during the past year (although it might still be rather rudimentary as I hear) and the users have shown interest should be proof enough it could be a business case for them. In addition, it might not only lead to more revenues with existing but also revenue with new customers they are not directly targeting yet. But that’s just my thought and rationale.

 

[rccarguy]

This is Class D so they do exist

T 778 - NAD Electronics

The T 778 features the latest developments in NAD’s Hybrid Digital technology to create 9 high current/high power channels of amplification.

nadelectronics.com

 

[ja2025]

That’s would I would expect and hope for. The fact that Wiim has integrated the feature during the past year (although it might still be rather rudimentary as I hear) and the users have shown interest should be proof enough it could be a business case for them. In addition, it might not only lead to more revenues with existing but also revenue with new customers they are not directly targeting yet. But that’s just my thought and rationale.

As long as it is more compact than a standard AVR and gives us a basic Dolby 5.1, I would buy one right away.

 

[Newb0815]

This is Class D so they do exist

T 778 - NAD Electronics

The T 778 features the latest developments in NAD’s Hybrid Digital technology to create 9 high current/high power channels of amplification.

nadelectronics.com

Yes, that‘s right, there are some and I know the NAD products (there are also the JBLs which I really like regarding the optics, but those lack the pre-out). But they are old, expensive and don’t measure well (looking at the test results from Amir on the ASR forum). In addition, I don’t understand at all why a stereo amp like the M10 supports adding wireless Bluesound rears for surround sound while an AVR at that price level doesn’t.

Just for the sake of having a physical look at some AVRs, I was at an electronic market here in Germany today. There were barely any although it was a big market, and during a brief chat with the sales guy, he confirmed that AVRs are basically dead. The fact that many of the usual manufacturers haven’t launched new products for years and/or barely offer any AVRs at all anymore (e.g. Sony; Yamaha also stopped selling its high-end AVRs at least in Germany/Europe some time ago) shows me that the typical old-fashioned AVr probably won’t be there for long anymore.

As long as it is more compact than a standard AVR and gives us a basic Dolby 5.1, I would buy one right away.

I absolutely agree, and following also other threads and forums, I think there are many more people who would.

 

[rccarguy]

Yes, that‘s right, there are some and I know the NAD products (there are also the JBLs which I really like regarding the optics, but those lack the pre-out). But they are old, expensive and don’t measure well (looking at the test results from Amir on the ASR forum). In addition, I don’t understand at all why a stereo amp like the M10 supports adding wireless Bluesound rears for surround sound while an AVR at that price level doesn’t.

Just for the sake of having a physical look at some AVRs, I was at an electronic market here in Germany today. There were barely any although it was a big market, and during a brief chat with the sales guy, he confirmed that AVRs are basically dead. The fact that many of the usual manufacturers haven’t launched new products for years and/or barely offer any AVRs at all anymore (e.g. Sony; Yamaha also stopped selling its high-end AVRs at least in Germany/Europe some time ago) shows me that the typical old-fashioned AVr probably won’t be there for long anymore.

I absolutely agree, and following also other threads and forums, I think there are many more people who would.

Complete nonsense.

 

[Newb0815]

Complete nonsense.

You don’t need to insult me. This is my opinion, and if you have a different one, that’s fine. We are not talking about facts here but about expectations for the future. So feel free to write that you have a different view.

I might have a rather radical view on this, but AVRs have lacked real innovation during the past years while other products have innovated the market. As such, I am confident that „new“ innovative products, particularly using efficient Class D amplification and offering the use of wireless products will come filling the gap between classic AVR solutions and soundbar-based solutions and also replacing traditional Class AB products. I was e.g. waiting for the Sonos Premier, a rumoured high-end AVR kind of product (which in the end hasn’t made it yet, probably due to the app disaster). But again, it is just my expectation (and hope).

 

[rccarguy]

You don’t need to insult me. This is my opinion, and if you have a different one, that’s fine. We are not talking about facts here but about expectations for the future. So feel free to write that you have a different view.

I might have a rather radical view on this, but AVRs have lacked real innovation during the past years while other products have innovated the market. As such, I am confident that „new“ innovative products, particularly using efficient Class D amplification and offering the use of wireless products will come filling the gap between classic AVR solutions and soundbar-based solutions and also replacing traditional Class AB products. I was e.g. waiting for the Sonos Premier, a rumoured high-end AVR kind of product (which in the end hasn’t made it yet, probably due to the app disaster). But again, it is just my expectation (and hope).

Avrs only have minor advancements over the years as they don't need new features and gimmicks
Thats fine that's all HT people put attention to.

Usually just number of channels, room eq, decoding of new formats and hdmi spec. Other things like streaming, app control are just additional features.

HT people don't want wireless features just gimmicks. Bluetooth receiver is ok though . Wireless speakers - not a chance.

 

[JAB]

You don’t need to insult me. This is my opinion, and if you have a different one, that’s fine. We are not talking about facts here but about expectations for the future. So feel free to write that you have a different view.

I might have a rather radical view on this, but AVRs have lacked real innovation during the past years while other products have innovated the market. As such, I am confident that „new“ innovative products, particularly using efficient Class D amplification and offering the use of wireless products will come filling the gap between classic AVR solutions and soundbar-based solutions and also replacing traditional Class AB products. I was e.g. waiting for the Sonos Premier, a rumoured high-end AVR kind of product (which in the end hasn’t made it yet, probably due to the app disaster). But again, it is just my expectation (and hope).

I do not like the attitude of this rc guy, too. But if you have a look outside Media Markt and so on, there is still an answer for every question in every price range. High End AV was always a niche in consumer electronics, but they are around and alive.

 

[Newb0815]

Avrs only have minor advancements over the years as they don't need new features and gimmicks
Thats fine that's all HT people put attention to.

Usually just number of channels, room eq, decoding of new formats and hdmi spec. Other things like streaming, app control are just additional features.

HT people don't want wireless features just gimmicks. Bluetooth receiver is ok though . Wireless speakers - not a chance.

I get your point and of course there will always be enthusiasts. But also for them, why shouldn’t AVRs use Class D amps? They tried that in the past already, but at the time, they were not on par with Class AB yet.

Apart from that, I think markets and customers have changed over the past decades (or at least new customers have become accessible for certain products). 20 years ago, in order to get surround sound, you needed an AVR and had to deal with the associated requirements and consequences. In a normal living room, that was not possible or not wanted in many cases. HT enthusiasts did it anyway or had/have a dedicated HT (room). They often were not the audiophile HiFi persons - those were two separate/different customer groups. The first soundbars and easy-to-use surround sound solutions (like e.g. the ones from Sonos) made significantly better sound possible also in normal living room environments (compared to just stereo / TV sound) avoiding several (former) downsides - specifically including the WAF . So people enjoying stereo sound can also be(come) “HT people”. I agree AVRs (though I guess with changes/innovations as mentioned above) will remain on the market for particular customer groups, but I also think a big mainstream customer group has become more and more accessible for surround sound solutions that are easy to use - that’s where I expect new and innovative “hybrid” solutions/devices in the future.

 

[Newb0815]

I do not like the attitude of this rc guy, too. But if you have a look outside Media Markt and so on, there is still an answer for every question in every price range. High End AV was always a niche in consumer electronics, but they are around and alive.

Absolutely. But it seems it’s moving a bit away from the mainstream since that segment has been heavily penetrated by soundbars and easy-to-use surround sound solutions.

 

[rccarguy]

I get your point and of course there will always be enthusiasts. But also for them, why shouldn’t AVRs use Class D amps? They tried that in the past already, but at the time, they were not on par with Class AB yet.

Apart from that, I think markets and customers have changed over the past decades (or at least new customers have become accessible for certain products). 20 years ago, in order to get surround sound, you needed an AVR and had to deal with the associated requirements and consequences. In a normal living room, that was not possible or not wanted in many cases. HT enthusiasts did it anyway or had/have a dedicated HT (room). They often were not the audiophile HiFi persons - those were two separate/different customer groups. The first soundbars and easy-to-use surround sound solutions (like e.g. the ones from Sonos) made significantly better sound possible also in normal living room environments (compared to just stereo / TV sound) avoiding several (former) downsides - specifically including the WAF . So people enjoying stereo sound can also be(come) “HT people”. I agree AVRs (though I guess with changes/innovations as mentioned above) will remain on the market for particular customer groups, but I also think a big mainstream customer group has become more and more accessible for surround sound solutions that are easy to use - that’s where I expect new and innovative “hybrid” solutions/devices in the future.

All in one units have always existed, they were just called "HTIB" sometimes the amp/speakers/sub, sometimes a DVD player as well.

Also the interest in soundbars now is because the sound from TV's is so bad even the general public have noticed, the one in mine is laughably bad. So a soundbar is a must.

Before with CRT TV's they had pretty good sound, some even very good like RPTV had 6"-8" woofers so could belt it out. Now with flat TV's they have literally buzzers.