Dropouts on coaxial output with ARC input

[Lenny]

So I have a pretty complicated setup. I use the coaxial output to connect "directly" to my genelc's AES/EBU input. Previously I used a simple coaxial to AES/EBU cable. But now I got (in addition to the WiiM Ultra) an coaxial to BNC adapter, a short BNC cable, Neutrik NADITBNC-M and a normal AES/EBU Cable to connect to the genelec's. That should be cleaner in theory since I convert the coaxial 75 Ohm signal to the correct AES/EBU 110 Ohm signal.

The problem is that I get some sorts of dropouts every few minutes. It sounds like shortly the left speaker volume goes to zero and then up to normal again (below one second) and directly after that the right speaker does it too and that happens every maybe 2-5 minutes.

It doesn't matter if I use my single converter cable or my complicated multiple cables and adapters solution. The "Optical/HDMI Audio De-noising" option also seems to make no difference with both connections.

I have a good message in that I kinda found a solution. So I have FiiO K3 that I normally use as my headphone DAC/AMP but it also has coaxial and optical output. So I tried connection that to the WiiM's USB out and then using the coaxial output of the FiiO. There with both the simple cable and the complicated setup I don't seem to have these problems.

So now my question what is the FiiO doing what the WiiM isn't and can the WiiM be updated to do it too? I am not so sure how I like my solution here.

If this doesn't get fixed I'm not sure if I want to stay with my (I feel hacky) solution or would switch back to my old setup (BlueSound Node), which would be a total shame because alone setting up the WiiM and using the app and having the remote make the WiiM super nice and I totally love it till now except for that sadly not so small problem.

 

[powdner]

I have exantly same issue.

I was earlier using Genelec analog input but yesterday decided go to digital. So I bought Neutrik NADIT BNC-XLR + RCA-BNC cable for Coax out and cables for Genelec digital inputs etc.

I also noticed that when I was watching or listening music via TV and using HDMI that sound was like fading. It like you said that left goes down and then come back. Sound is like fading left to right. I have also sub but I dont think that will make difference.

What HDMI mode you are using on TV or what device you use with HDMI? My default was throughput and now I changed to PCM. Need to test today how it is working.

I also changed HDMI input mode to PCM from Bitstream.

 

[Lenny]

I was using HDMI output to WiiM PCM and all the devices (Chromecast with Google TV, Panasonic 4k VD Player) to TV bitstream. I tried once setting Chromecast itself to all supported stereo formats and then HDMI to WiiM to bitstream. That seemed to fix the issue on YouTube but as soon as I tried Amazon Prime Video I had the problem again.

I have returned the device now. I guess in the future I'm more interested in devices that take the audio signal before it goes into the TV, as using it from the TV seems to be problematic with many devices. I had the problem with the first connection I tried with the speakers too. Simple Optical to coax to AES/EBU conversion. For now I stay with the BlueSound.

Maybe you should just use analog since that seems to work good. It also measures very well and is transparent so there is no audible difference. I'm personally just weird like that.

 

[powdner]

I was using HDMI output to WiiM PCM and all the devices (Chromecast with Google TV, Panasonic 4k VD Player) to TV bitstream. I tried once setting Chromecast itself to all supported stereo formats and then HDMI to WiiM to bitstream. That seemed to fix the issue on YouTube but as soon as I tried Amazon Prime Video I had the problem again.

I have returned the device now. I guess in the future I'm more interested in devices that take the audio signal before it goes into the TV, as using it from the TV seems to be problematic with many devices. I had the problem with the first connection I tried with the speakers too. Simple Optical to coax to AES/EBU conversion. For now I stay with the BlueSound.

Maybe you should just use analog since that seems to work good. It also measures very well and is transparent so there is no audible difference. I'm personally just weird like that.

Thanks for update.
You mean that you encountered problem without Wiim also using direct TV to speakers? If I understanded correctly.

Maybe I make ticket and check if support has something to tell. If not then I maybe return it and check other options. I was interesting to have one remote control.

 

[Lenny]

You mean that you encountered problem without Wiim also using direct TV to speakers? If I understanded correctly.

Exactly.

I guess the internal DAC of the Genelec (or some other process/component in them) is the "real" problem. I also had written quite a bit of mails with the Genelec support as I first got them and they tried some things but of course didn't have a source there with that they could have replicated the problem.

WiiM probably just passes the bad signal from the TV through. Only thing I wonder is why the "Optical/HDMI Audio De-noising" option doesn't seem to help, maybe it's not strong enough or only does something on the analog output.

 

[harkpabst]

WiiM probably just passes the bad signal from the TV through. Only thing I wonder is why the "Optical/HDMI Audio De-noising" option doesn't seem to help, maybe it's not strong enough.

I don't think WiiM provided any details on how the "De-noising" works but since they mention possible additional latency it probably relies on a bigger buffer in the first place. Short glitches or outages could be resolved this way, but any effect or defect being perceived as some sort of fading probably takes too long or maybe couldn't even be detected that easily.

Interesting finding, nonetheless.

 

[powdner]

Exactly.

I guess the internal DAC of the Genelec (or some other process/component in them) is the "real" problem. I also had written quite a bit of mails with the Genelec support as I first got them and they tried some things but of course didn't have a source there with that they could have replicated the problem.

WiiM probably just passes the bad signal from the TV through. Only thing I wonder is why the "Optical/HDMI Audio De-noising" option doesn't seem to help, maybe it's not strong enough or only does something on the analog output.

I was thinking if Wiim support can help. I think that Genelec support will not help because they can blame source.

 

[powdner]

@Lenny Which Genelec’s you have? I have 8330A + 7350A sub.

 

[Lenny]

@Lenny Which Genelec’s you have?

I have 8340A.

 

[powdner]

Thanks.

 

[powdner]

@Lenny Sorry to bother again but I have question related Node. You was there also using HDMI in and coax out as digitally to speakers and there wasn’t any problems? Or was that something older Node without HDMI?

I made some testing yesterday and noticed that there is no difference using passthrough or PCM. Both cause there drops. I also contacted to Wiim support to check their side. When using digital outputs then Wiim not touch this at all. So all processing etc. is done on speakers.

If you have Node with HDMI in etc. and everything works digitally then maybe Node process this data and that is reason why this is not happening.

On analog side everything works fine and no dropouts.

 

[Lenny]

You're not bothering me.

Yeah, I have the Node connected digitally via ARC in and Coaxial out (I actually don't have cables to connect the speakers analog since I never did) and it seems it is doing some processing that the WiiM Ultra does not. My FiiO K3 also seems to do something, or the WiiM does something on the USB Out and not the Coaxial out.

I also contacted WiiM support regarding this matter, but sadly they didn't get back to me (yet?).

 

[powdner]

You're not bothering me.

Yeah, I have the Node connected digitally via ARC in and Coaxial out (I actually don't have cables to connect the speakers analog since I never did) and it seems it is doing some processing that the WiiM Ultra does not. My FiiO K3 also seems to do something, or the WiiM does something on the USB Out and not the Coaxial out.

I also contacted WiiM support regarding this matter, but sadly they didn't get back to me (yet?).

Thanks for update.

I got update in 24 hours from Wiim support. Seems that I need to look another option because on Wiim side that is directly bypassing material to speakers and Node do something for this. Maybe Node capture audio and process it forward to coax out as "new" digitally.

On Wiim side only line out and headphone out are using Wiim own DAC. All other is send through.

Need to look options for this setup now. Because wanted to go with digital with Wiim but maybe better to return to old analog setup which I have.

 

[Lenny]

With analog you'll probably never have problems with TV's in combination with Genelec speakers, so maybe that's the best thing to do yeah. Also to have peace of mind with future devices, that they won't suddenly reintroduce these problems, like I now have with every new product.

Great to have some kind of answer though, that seems to pretty much explain it and confirm my/our theory.

 

[artishard116]

Just chiming in to say i have the exact same issue. Wiim ultra feeding genelec 8361. Happens to all sources being played throught the hdmi input. Hope this is something fixable in a firmware update.

 

[powdner]

Just chiming in to say i have the exact same issue. Wiim ultra feeding genelec 8361. Happens to all sources being played throught the hdmi input. Hope this is something fixable in a firmware update.

Make ticket when you encountered this problem via Wiim app and send logs with that. Maybe they can do something. But currently Wiim sends digital data throught to speakers and not process it. If they will change that, then this will possible fix issue.

With HDMI to Wiim and line out to speakers not cause issue because Wiim own DAC process material.

 

[powdner]

I discussed this matter with Bluesound support too. On those has same thing. When using digital input (HDMI) and coax out as digital output. Then all material is send throught to speakers and speakers DAC so the magic.

So method in both devices Wiim and Bluesound are same. So it is possible something which can be fixed via firmware but hard to say. Or there is problem on Genelec side.

I returned my device and looking other solutions now.

 

[Lenny]

Interesting. I mean something has to be different in BlueSound Node vs WiiM Ultra.

Who is at fault highly depends on the viewer I guess. You could say the TV manufacturers, because they send a signal with too much jitter. You could also say the DAC in the Genelec's should be able to handle it, since most other external DAC's are able too handle it. Maybe the argument for the WiiM being at fault is the worst since the DAC is able to handle it just not the digital out and there WiiM can make the easiest the argument that either the TV or the Genelec's are at fault.

 

[powdner]

I have LG TV.

 

[Lenny]

Yeah same, apparently LG TVs have notoriously bad audio output quality, I found quite a few threads in multiple forums about it and sadly I don't think it has gotten any better with newer models.