Features wanted in a Wiim Ultra 2

[Horsey]

This guy wasn't convinced.

Going down an SFP “Rabbit Hole” in search of digital audio GLORY

Going down an SFP "Rabbit Hole" in search of digital audio GLORY Article What am I missing? I am sure you have all been there, where you might be happy with your HiFi system in the main but there are products on that market that intrigue you just a little bit, but

www.pursuitperfectsystem.com

Have read that series. He made a real effort with many products. I didn’t go that way. I avoided all those network switch products. Those commercial audio products come with major price tags.

These guys did try a bunch of and more inexpensive options. Nice effort. With my Meraki, I did not go copper (Ethernet cables) like they did. I used fiber between units and removed the internal power supplies in both Cisco units. Took five minutes. For all Ethernet cables, I highly recommend the Bluejeans ones as they are quality and inexpensive. They even come with a test sheet.

Here’s their written reflections: https://www.alpha-audio.net/review/a-very-deep-dive-into-network-switches-listening-and-measuring/

 

[HighNRG]

And all these stuff from the different positions keep our nerd forums running! Cui bono? The forum operators! Ask Amir

 

[Horsey]

And all these stuff from the different positions keep our nerd forums running! Cui bono? The forum operators! Ask Amir

My system benefitted. Amir tests some products and that’s fine. Don’t tell him about this though.

If this gets shared they will demand you show some limited test results. If you don’t have thousands in measurement gear, there’s henchmen on that website who will ridicule and then censor you.

Not into censorship. In my system, I was able to get my WiiM Pro setup to equal the audio sound quality to the output from a M1 MacBook Air via USB direct to my DAC using Qobuz. For this, I’m extremely grateful.

Think WiiM has done some great work. I love their Room Correction efforts and in my system, I’ve seen some benefit there too. To the point with their improved efforts, I don’t want to go without it.

The SFP input is going to become standardized with streamers. It has a simple benefit of eliminating noise.

 

[Aquaman]

Yes, but tried a number of transceivers, converters, and the fiber wire lengths before I ended where I did. Short Bluejeans ethernet cable connection to the WiiM Pro. It worked.

Of course it worked. But so would any other configuration.

300 Mbps

…. and a standard CAT connection does 1GBit/s. Any fibre in-house won‘t get you any benefit at all.

 

[Horsey]

Of course it worked. But so would any other configuration.


…. and a standard CAT connection does 1Mbit/s. Any fibre in-house won‘t get you any benefit at all.

Yes, it worked previously. In my full range system, with tube amp monoblocks and a RME ADI-2 DAC, it’s better now as I detailed. Having upgraded to a fiber internet provider helped too but that I can’t impact.

Their measured test with a Cisco Meraki similar to mine.

https://www.alpha-audio.net/review/a-very-deep-dive-into-network-switches-listening-and-measuring/3/

 

[hgo58]

Yes, it worked previously. In my full range system, with tube amp monoblocks and a RME ADI-2 DAC, it’s better now as I detailed. Having upgraded to a fiber internet provider helped too but that I can’t impact.

Their measured test with a Cisco Meraki similar to mine.

https://www.alpha-audio.net/review/a-very-deep-dive-into-network-switches-listening-and-measuring/3/

That is utterly nonsense. People writing this kind of reviews do either not understand networks and digital signals, or they are payed were well by the vendors.

 

[Horsey]

That is utterly nonsense. People writing this kind of reviews do either not understand networks and digital signals, or they are payed were well by the vendors.

As that is so often the case in this hobby, skepticism is warranted.

You can try a simple fiber test with converters for $100. Some see a sterile, poor result. Had seen that at one point. The inexpensive route where I landed up shows otherwise. I am not a vendor. My setup features old, used Cisco products costing under $50. (Many people do further mods and are pleased too.)

Hans B on YouTube made the journey and also learned for himself. There’s more to reconstructing bits. That’s good or bad depending on your network engineering experience and beliefs. As noted earlier Alpha Audio, published measurements including with my Meraki variety, among others.

 

[hgo58]

As that is so often the case in this hobby, skepticism is warranted.

You can try a simple fiber test with converters for $100. Some see a sterile, poor result. Had seen that at one point. The inexpensive route where I landed up shows otherwise. I am not a vendor. My setup features old, used Cisco products costing under $50. (Many people do further mods and are pleased too.)

Hans B on YouTube made the journey and also learned for himself. There’s more to reconstructing bits. That’s good or bad depending on your network engineering experience and beliefs. As noted earlier Alpha Audio, published measurements including with my Meraki variety, among others.

All music services uses the TCP/IP protocol. It either delivers error free data or it doesn't deliver at all. There may be some jitter in the data package transfer but that will primarily be on the Internet, not in your local network. This has no impact on the sound, as there is always a buffer involved.

Any one claiming that the sound improves with better network switches are deceiving them self.

 

[Aquaman]

All music services uses the TCP/IP protocol. It either delivers error free data or it doesn't deliver at all. There may be some jitter in the data package ewisothertransfer but that will primarily be on the Internet, not in your local network. This has no impact on the sound, as there is always a buffer involved.

Any one claiming that the sound improves with better network switches are deceiving them self.

And yet it is facinating to see how otherwise perfectly sane poeple jump onto this train.
There must be something in their music …

 

[Horsey]

All music services uses the TCP/IP protocol. It either delivers error free data or it doesn't deliver at all. There may be some jitter in the data package transfer but that will primarily be on the Internet, not in your local network. This has no impact on the sound, as there is always a buffer involved.

Any one claiming that the sound improves with better network switches are deceiving them self.

Yes, familiar with the protocol. There’s noise at a minimum picked up under distinct scenarios at the site of the system in a home. I’ve learned this oddly with Ethernet cables. Was not a fan of cable claims. But regarding Ethernet, noise does get picked up there and the Bluejeans Ethernet cable’s used replacing good generic ones also showed a little but notable improvement. I am a consumer, not a vendor. I believe in the future of streamer SFP inputs with proper implementation, jazz, rock, classical and some electronic.

Now about your network engineering certifications… kidding

 

[Horsey]

All music services uses the TCP/IP protocol. It either delivers error free data or it doesn't deliver at all. There may be some jitter in the data package transfer but that will primarily be on the Internet, not in your local network. This has no impact on the sound, as there is always a buffer involved.

Any one claiming that the sound improves with better network switches are deceiving them self.

Reconstructing the data, re: the bits are bits belief is simply inadequate. This is why proper SFP inputs are the future of streaming.

Resolving one technical issue doesn’t mean there are no other improvements available in streaming setups.
If it were, everyone could run a Rasberry Pi, as nothing else would sound better.

 

[Aquaman]

… run a Rasberry Pi, as nothing else would sound better.

Now you got it. It IS that simple.

 

[Horsey]

Now you got it. It IS that simple.

I wish. As an early adopter of the WiiM Pro, I stream through an external DAC, an RME ADI-2.

Is the WiiM Ultra better with this external DAC? The reports suggest not really.

Can WiiM do better? So far, they’ve proven, they can impact the market with inexpensive hardware and an industry benchmark slew standard of software releases.

WiiM, please contact me and arrange a how my golden ears can help pave the way to the ultimate SFP future.
Let’s do this.

 

[hgo58]

Reconstructing the data, re: the bits are bits belief is simply inadequate.

That is what we hear time after time. If that was correct, no computers would work.

This is why proper SFP inputs are the future of streaming.

There is no relation to quality in SFP, only flexibility.

Resolving one technical issue doesn’t mean there are no other improvements available in streaming setups.
If it were, everyone could run a Rasberry Pi, as nothing else would sound better.

Actually you are right when it comes to the digital part of the chain. A PI would do just as well if the software is correct. The WiiMs are a kind of PI with some additional hardware for DSP and ADC/DAC functionality.

Yes, familiar with the protocol. There’s noise at a minimum picked up under distinct scenarios at the site of the system in a home. I’ve learned this oddly with Ethernet cables. Was not a fan of cable claims. But regarding Ethernet, noise does get picked up there and the Bluejeans Ethernet cable’s used replacing good generic ones also showed a little but notable improvement.

Yes. There is noise everywhere. That is why the digital signal chain is used. If there is so much noise that the data is corrupted, it's retransmitted. In normal environments noise is however not an issue, even with standard cables

Now about your network engineering certifications… kidding

Just 40 years of network engineering and software development. Working with facts, not believes

 

[canard]

That is what we hear time after time. If that was correct, no computers would work.

There is no relation to quality in SFP, only flexibility.

Actually you are right when it comes to the digital part of the chain. A PI would do just as well if the software is correct. The WiiMs are a kind of PI with some additional hardware for DSP and ADC/DAC functionality.

Yes. There is noise everywhere. That is why the digital signal chain is used. If there is so much noise that the data is corrupted, it's retransmitted. In normal environments noise is however not an issue, even with standard cables

Just 40 years of network engineering and software development

Perhaps just as a precaution, Wiim could slip some small galvanic isolation transformers onto all its digital inputs and outputs... including Ethernet of course...
;-)

 

[Horsey]

That is what we hear time after time. If that was correct, no computers would work.

There is no relation to quality in SFP, only flexibility.

Actually you are right when it comes to the digital part of the chain. A PI would do just as well if the software is correct. The WiiMs are a kind of PI with some additional hardware for DSP and ADC/DAC functionality.

Yes. There is noise everywhere. That is why the digital signal chain is used. If there is so much noise that the data is corrupted, it's retransmitted. In normal environments noise is however not an issue, even with standard cables

Just 40 years of network engineering and software development

Love the dye in the wool network engineers. Where’d we be today with out you?

As relates to this topic and suggestion, there is capacity for audio benefits going the SFP input design route. Obviously, there’s impact using transceivers of different types too. That surprised me as well. Landed up with a generic, used Finisar for about $15 off flea bay.

Okay, enough of me here. WiiM, reach out to me and let’s sort out the US-based testing on this. It’s time!

 

[slartibartfast]

Reconstructing the data, re: the bits are bits belief is simply inadequate. This is why proper SFP inputs are the future of streaming.

Resolving one technical issue doesn’t mean there are no other improvements available in streaming setups.
If it were, everyone could run a Rasberry Pi, as nothing else would sound better.

I only bought the WiiM Amp for the bass management otherwise I would still be happy with a Raspberry Pi.

 

[canard]

Perhaps just as a precaution, Wiim could slip some small galvanic isolation transformers onto all its digital inputs and outputs... including Ethernet of course...
;-)

(Frankly, this could – and should – have already been the case, at least for the SPDIF inputs and outputs..... small Murata or Pulse... very standart option )