Gapless issues over DLNA with Pro and JRiver MC

[Driftdive]

Hi,

My first post here after taking delivery of a WiiM Pro today. Initial thoughts were very impressed indeed, but after some listening I came across a problem I thought wasn't an issue, gapless playback? Hopefully there is a solution I've missed, as I really like the player and don't want to return it, but this is a deal breaker for me.

System:

JRiver27 on a dedicated music server running on Linux Debian11 and set to act as a Music Server. Nothing else runs on this server, just JRiver sharing FLAC files over the network via DLNA.
WiiM Pro in a second room connected to a Rega DAC (tested over both Coax and S/PDIF) and hard wired to the network, with WiFi turned off in the settings and fixed volume output selected. EQ is also off.

I get quite a gap between songs, in particular I just played Dark Side of the Moon and there was over a 4 second gap between Time and The Great Gig in the Sky. I also experience a crackle sound at the start of some songs, it's not loud but it's very noticeable, especially on headphones, again on both Coax and S/PDIF. I have tried running the Pro on the supplied power adapter and with a large USB 5V power bank, same thing whatever combination I try.

Playing Dark Side of the Moon via Qobuz however, I don't experience this issue, it plays gaplessly, it's just 16/44.1 FLAC files over DLNA from JRiver it seems.

Prior to this I have been running Volumio 3 on an Intel i5NUC acting as a DLNA renderer in the exact same setup as above with no issues at all.

Is there something I have missed or is this a bug/issue?

 

[simbun]

It is gapless as long as your control point supports it. If you're using the WiiM home app then it should work out the box, but if for example you're using BubbleUPnP then you need to enable 'Gapless control' for the WiiM renderer in the BubbleUPnP settings.

 

[Driftdive]

The control point is JRiver Media Server which is both a DLNA and UPnP server and (normally) it natively plays gaplessly and has done for anything else I've used previously, lastly that was Volumio acting as a renderer. JRiver is a DLNA server, renderer and controller and I use the JRemote app as the remote control. I am investigating JRiver's menus and Wiki to see if there is anything that needs to be enabled/disabled, but so far nothing.

I think it'll be going back in the box for a return as I really expected gapless to have been fully ironed out, as per John Darko's report in February, however that was for the Mini not the Pro, but I'd be surprised if the firmware/software differs that much. I'll keep at it but if it proves too difficult, I don't want to spend hours trying to fix it, I just want to play music! If I find a solution I'll report back to update for anyone elses benefit and thanks for the reply simbun.

If anyone else has experience with this unit and JRiver acting as the media server, let me know?

I'll submit a ticket to WiiM through the app as well.

 

[Driftdive]

Just thought I'd add that everything else works perfectly, Spotify Connect, Tidal Connect and the setup procedure was very quick and intuitive, I was playing music in about 5 minutes, so kudos to the app development team. If it wasn't for this one issue I'd be a very happy camper

 

[simbun]

I did install JRiver to take a quick look (just into a software sandbox). I found how to enable the DLNA server component and used it to play to the WiiM gaplessly through both the WiiM app and BubbleUPnP, although for some reason it was converting the FLAC to MP3 even though 'Don't convert audio' was selected.
I couldn't work out how to choose a speaker from Jriver though.

 

[BGLeduc]

I don’t know why you are not getting gapless but it does work. My setup is jRiver using the legacy UPnP server to my Pro. No conversion at jRiver. I am running coax out to a Cambridge DAC Magic 100. Fixed level output. My coax is set for max of 24/192 so no conversions on the receiving side either. I use WiiM Home to run the show.

Listening to a lossless rip of DSOTM as I type. There were no settings that I can recall to enable gapless. It just worked. I hope you get it sorted out.

 

[Driftdive]

Thanks guys, that seems to be the problem BGLeduc, how the chain runs? With JRiver acting purely as a UPnP music server and using the WiiM Home app to play music via the My Library > Home Music Share option it can see the JRiver server and indexes the music. Playing Dark Side of the Moon this way is gapless . . . kind of, 99% there. There is a faint perceptible click between tracks that is audible using headphones, but not so much though my KEF loudspeakers.

So if I use JRiver as the control 'sending' FLAC files to the Wiim Pro it isn't gapless, but if the WiiM Home app 'pulls' the files from the server it is gapless, save for the small click you can hear - it is small, a bit like a dust click from a vinyl record, but it's there.

What I will say though is that listening to Hi-Res on Qobuz last night via headphones, with the Pro powered by a 5V USB battery bank, the results are quite astonishing considering it's price point. Perfectly gapless with no clicks pops or squels. So acting as a Hi-Res Qobuz streamer it's a product, no question.

I'll work on seeing if I can smooth out that click between tracks.

 

[Mr Ee]

I read clicks pops or squirrels.
I blame your spelling of squeal

 

[Driftdive]

Haha, good point and very well presented sir

Those damn squirrels get everywhere!

 

[BGLeduc]

Thanks guys, that seems to be the problem BGLeduc, how the chain runs? With JRiver acting purely as a UPnP music server and using the WiiM Home app to play music via the My Library > Home Music Share option it can see the JRiver server and indexes the music. Playing Dark Side of the Moon this way is gapless . . . kind of, 99% there. There is a faint perceptible click between tracks that is audible using headphones, but not so much though my KEF loudspeakers.

So if I use JRiver as the control 'sending' FLAC files to the Wiim Pro it isn't gapless, but if the WiiM Home app 'pulls' the files from the server it is gapless, save for the small click you can hear - it is small, a bit like a dust click from a vinyl record, but it's there.

What I will say though is that listening to Hi-Res on Qobuz last night via headphones, with the Pro powered by a 5V USB battery bank, the results are quite astonishing considering it's price point. Perfectly gapless with no clicks pops or squels. So acting as a Hi-Res Qobuz streamer it's a product, no question.

I'll work on seeing if I can smooth out that click between tracks.

I have not listened with headphones, but may be able to carve out some time this weekend. After I streamed Darkside, I went to the 24/192 Remix of Animals, both were played in my room at a very healthy volume and if there was any noise of any kind between tracks I did not detect it. But using cans will be a better test.

Another test I can try to replicate your findings is to use jRiver to “push” the stream down to the Pro rather than WiiM Home. That won’t be my usual use case since the Mac is in a different part of my home, but it will be interesting to test.

 

[Driftdive]

I'm making some progress, as Simbun reported JRiver was converting the file which I hadn't noticed, as the JRemote app just shows 16 bit 44.1 kHz - however, playing via the WiiM Home app I could see songs were being shared as 320 kbps, 16/44.1 Shows how good my ears are!



So going into JRiver and configuring the DNLA settings I changed this to PCM 24bit, it had been set to 'MP3 High Bandwidth' This change has got rid of the scratchy squirrels click, which must have been the conversion from FLAC to MP3. It's still not gapless serving data from JRiver, but using the WiiM Home app it is gapless and without the click now. So in theory if it can be done one way, it can be done the other?

I'll keep at it as there must be a solution and it might help anyone else who might get the same issue.

And the Pro is definitely not going back, even if I just use if for streaming Qobuz, it will have more than earned it's place in my system

 

[BGLeduc]

I'm making some progress, as Simbun noticed JRiver was converting the file which I hadn't noticed, as the JRemote app was just reporting 16bit 44.1 - however, playing via the WiiM Home app I could see songs were being shared as 320 kbps, 16/44.1 Shows how good my ears are!

View attachment 694

So going into JRiver and configuring the DNLA settings I changed this to PCM 24bit, it had been set to 'MP3 High Bandwidth' This change has got rid of the scratchy squirrels click, which must have been the conversion from FLAC to MP3. It's still not gapless serving data from JRiver, but using the WiiM Home app it is gapless and without the click now. So in theory if it can be done one way, it can be done the other?

I'll keep at it as there must be a solution and it might help anyone else who might get the same issue.

And the Pro is definitely not going back, even if I just use if for streaming Qobuz, it will have more than earned it's place in my system

I can confirm that pushing down directly from jRiver to the Pro is not gapless. I selected the Pro in the "Playing Now" pull down, dragged DSOTM into the play list, hit play and noted a very pronounced pause between "Speak to Me/Breathe the Air" and "On the Run". It is not subtle. In fact, it was so long that I thought maybe jRive had frozen. I am really glad I opted to not buy jRiver's remote app.

 

[Driftdive]

Yes, it is quite a gap - I have a stopwatch and it's over 4 seconds!

The odd thing is this problem never occured when I used an i5NUC with Volumio installed and acting as the renderer. Everything was noise free and gapless with the same configuration. It's confusing but it must be fixable if the WiiM can play it gapless, so I'm not giving up just yet.

 

[d6jg]

I think it is fair to say that there are issues with WiiMs UPnP implementation.
The developer of the LMS UPnP/DLNA Bridge has managed to get gapless working but not without a lot of code changes.
I’m afraid this is the ongoing problem with UPnP generally. No common standard.

 

[Brantome]

I think it’s fair to say that there are issues with a lot of companies’ UPNP implementation. I was using Qobuz via LMS today to stream to an old Denon CEOL Piccolo using the default settings in the latest version of UPNPBridge that had been working with my WiiM Pro, but it wouldn’t advance tracks in the playlist till I changed the Gapless setting to Force even though I wasn’t playing a gapless source. I think there’s a touch of the dark arts needed to get it working at times…

 

[Johnny]

May I ask what usb battery bank you use?

 

[Driftdive]

May I ask what usb battery bank you use?

Hi Johnny,

It's a 20,000mAh Anker PowerCore and works superbly. It's output is 5V-2A which matches the power output of the supplied WiiM plug. A good compromise over a linear power supply or iFi iPower. The WiiM uses very little power and it was playing music all day yesterday, with ample power left. The 4 blue LED's after a full days use went down from 4 to 3, so it should last a couple of days hard use if the LED indicators are accurate - if you only used it for a few hours a day and the WiiM was mostly on standby, it should last much longer. I'm running the WiiM all day and charging the power bank overnight.



I don't know if this has changed with Anker power banks (I bought this in 2017), but this model cannot provide power and recharge at the same time. So if I plug a charging cable in it cuts power to the WiiM. No idea if they still do this, but something to be mindful of. But for me it's no hassle to recharge it overnight. I guess you could attach it to a timer switch and do it automatically?

 

[Driftdive]

Still no solution for my issue after working away until the very early hours, I have probably tried every conceivable setting in JRiver to get the Pro to play gaplessly as a client, including a new install of JRiver and a reset of the Pro. There are settings in the JRiver DLNA configuration to select ‘gapless’ which is the default setting. I have used JRiver with a number of low cost DLNA clients over the last few years, plus a Hegel and no client has ever been a problem out the box. Just to be sure I fired up the NUC again with the free version of Volumio 3 installed and re-checked it as a DLNA client and it worked perfectly playing gapless music. So there does appear to be an issue with the WiiM acting as a DLNA/UPnP client and playing gapless, certainly with JRiver there is.

As reported above, it can play gapless itself if it’s pulling music from JRiver, but this isn’t a workable solution for me with nearly 4,500 ripped FLAC albums and cover art on my music server, the WiiM can’t index or handle that size library without hanging, but to be fair I never expected it too, it’s not powerful enough, so that was never an expectation. I didn’t expect it to stumble as a client though.

However, as a battery powered music streamer playing Qobuz, Tidal or Spotify it’s very good indeed. With it's low power consumption it's a breeze powering it from a 5V battery bank and with that inky black background you get when running from a lithium battery, 24/192 streams from Qobuz sound absolutely superb, especially using decent headphones and a headphone amplifier. Lets hope WiiM do team up with Qobuz to be the first Qobuz Connect partner as David Solomon has hinted – that would definitely seal the deal for me.

I guess I'll just have to manage my expectations about it's capabilities. I'm giving the troubleshooting a rest for a few days, so I can enjoy the music. Haven't put a ticket in yet, but I'll do that so the WiiM team are aware of the problem.

At least I managed to get rid of the squirrels!

 

[Mr Ee]

Squirrels in your hi fi can drive you nuts.

 

[simbun]

As reported above, it can play gapless itself if it’s pulling music from JRiver, but this isn’t a workable solution for me with nearly 4,500 ripped FLAC albums and cover art on my music server, the WiiM can’t index or handle that size library without hanging, but to be fair I never expected it too, it’s not powerful enough, so that was never an expectation. I didn’t expect it to stumble as a client though.

The WiiM Home app doesn't index your data, it just presents the xml that's sent from your server. I only have about 1500 albums but the WiiM app displays them instantly, quicker than my normal controller of choice - hardly surprising I suppose given it doesn't display any artwork and only requests 200 at a time from the server.