Mainstream audio is getting afraid

[BowsAndArrows]

hmm.. i swear i'm not playin devil's advocate for no reason...

but i do agree with their point that if anyone is shelling out cash for paid "reviews" on youtube/tik tok/insta, it's the Chi-Fi crowd... many of them have obviously developed a reputation over the years by building quality products, but they almost all initially started out this way (at least by giving out free products) because they are smaller, younger companies who are more savvy with digital marketing and don't have a distributor network to help them sell the products.

i'm not saying that the established Hi-Fi brands would never or are not doing this, i'm just saying that they don't really need to - partly because their target consumers don't really overlap with the digital-everything younger people with less money to spend and who shop online. and also because they have possibly outdated ideas about how to efficiently market to consumers in the digital age

i also actually do think it is a fair comparison because the price is comparable, and because the solutions (WiiM mini + onkyo AVR vs Wiim Amp - notice both options include a WiiM device ) would actually end up fitting in the same place in the customer's life. and tbh if i was making the choice i would actually think that overall even a wiim pro + the AVR would be the most cost-effective solution, with a possibility of adding multichannel in the future.

i'm not in any way saying the wiim amp is not good value for the people it's appropriate for. but as they say in the comments - it's not the right choice for everyone and the value in their video is showing people an alternative that may suit their situation/needs better that they wouldn't have considered unless they went to their local Hi-Fi Dealer...

 

[BowsAndArrows]

I fully agree. I'm probably biased because I bought my very first three head cassette deck just recently (I went with Yamaha, not Wiim because of Atze Schröder's Techie Ted's review) just for the fun of it. It's amazing how well some of my own 40 year old tapes are still sounding (Yamaha's Play Trim feature is of some help here). I also acquired a large amount of good quality used cassettes no longer loved by their former owners and again I was surprised how good some of the recorded material really was.

The biggest problem with cassettes has always been wrong bias and EQ settings, mismatched tape sensitivity and - consequentially - bad Dolby NR recordings. And that's just referring to HiFi decks, of course.

However, if you have been lucky enough to experience what a two-track reel-to-reel tape recorder at 15 or even 30 ips could perform like, back in the day, then you know how limited even the best cassette decks have been, in comparison. Great fun for me, still and much better than I had remembered.

i'm loving this discussion about tapes... which yamaha did you get? i am thinking about getting one of those braun atelier c1s to hook up to my WiiM pro...

 

[Fender]

i'm loving this discussion about tapes... which yamaha did you get? i am thinking about getting one of those braun atelier c1s to hook up to my WiiM pro...

Still working fine. Not very often, but still fine.
Really far away from topic. Sorry.

 

[Shishkebaben]

One thing that's slightly off topic, but has always baffled me is that people who spend big money on a nice TV, rarely stop to think about the sound, they might buy a soundbar to go with that TV, but just as many use the internal speakers that come with the TV.

Surely if you've bought a big TV because you love watching TV or movies at home, you would also invest in a good audio system, as movies are just as much about sound as they are images.

I agree so much with you on this.
I was in the same situation, simply because I was unaware of audio products. Many like me do not have experience with good audio and what to buy. But once you go into the rabbit hole you are in it for life, at least for me.
The second big purchase i made after my top end TV was audio equipment, which now triumphs the TVs price by several times.

We need to show those near us ehat they are missing.

 

[QuarryHunslet]

Still working fine. Not very often, but still fine.
Really far away from topic. Sorry.

View attachment 6098

I couldn't afford a Nakamichi Dragon back in the day, so I settled for the still excellent Nakamichi CR-3E, and optional extra RM-5 wired remote control unit. I have it connected to my WiiM Amp, together with another oldie from the past, a Pioneer PDR-609 compact disc recorder.

 

[Fender]

As the initial owner this machine from 1994 is with me from the very first day. It was till this day the most expensive item I bought. The meanings wether or not I could afford it then differ ;-)
The Dragon was always revised by the German Nakamichi Guru and looks and works like new. The last offer I got was the number in Euro what I paid in Deutschmarks. So no bad invest, but zero intention to sell it. And yes, the Nakas from these are exceptional.

 

[cooky560]

I recently had the experience of hearing a "type 4" tape (not mine, or in my home, sadly) and it was surprising what it sounded like. I remembered tapes as the poor cousin to other formats, indeed when I used to go shopping for music in actual brick and mortar record stores, the tapes were always 1/2 the price or less compared with the vinyl, and CDs.

However having heard a properly biased type 4 tape, it's impressive how good the technology got as it matured, and is leagues away from the type 1s that too many records were distributed on.

 

[dimangiful]

hmm.. i swear i'm not playin devil's advocate for no reason...

but i do agree with their point that if anyone is shelling out cash for paid "reviews" on youtube/tik tok/insta, it's the Chi-Fi crowd... many of them have obviously developed a reputation over the years by building quality products, but they almost all initially started out this way (at least by giving out free products) because they are smaller, younger companies who are more savvy with digital marketing and don't have a distributor network to help them sell the products.

i'm not saying that the established Hi-Fi brands would never or are not doing this, i'm just saying that they don't really need to - partly because their target consumers don't really overlap with the digital-everything younger people with less money to spend and who shop online. and also because they have possibly outdated ideas about how to efficiently market to consumers in the digital age

i also actually do think it is a fair comparison because the price is comparable, and because the solutions (WiiM mini + onkyo AVR vs Wiim Amp - notice both options include a WiiM device ) would actually end up fitting in the same place in the customer's life. and tbh if i was making the choice i would actually think that overall even a wiim pro + the AVR would be the most cost-effective solution, with a possibility of adding multichannel in the future.

i'm not in any way saying the wiim amp is not good value for the people it's appropriate for. but as they say in the comments - it's not the right choice for everyone and the value in their video is showing people an alternative that may suit their situation/needs better that they wouldn't have considered unless they went to their local Hi-Fi Dealer...

I believe there is eventually only room for one option, not both. There will always be the niche markets with low volumes, high prices. But that niche will be so small, you will not anymore have electronic (or hi-fi) stores even in all larger cities to supply. That will make it even more niche and smaller manufacturers will disappear with their brand names reused for the masses.

Also, i don’t think the older generations will make a business. If/when they need to renew the hardware, they will follow the advice from younger generations. They too, appreciate usability, perhaps even more so than many sound quality enthustiastic young people. A set-up consisting of equipment that has to be manually operated with five separate infernally designed remotes is not an option for the average person in 2024.

 

[cooky560]

Sadly I think that hi-fi is a dying hobby.

People don't listen to music in the same way as they used to.

I'm an old man and I still like to sit in a comfy chair and listen to a couple of hours a music each day, but many people only really seem to have music as background while doing other things.

As a result of this change, many people are less willing to spend money and space in their rooms on good quality hifi, when a cheap pair of earbuds plugged in to a phone, or using their soundbar as a Bluetooth receiver will do.

The rarer it is that people buy hifi, the more pricey it will become as fewer sales have to make the same bank to the company

 

[harkpabst]

I believe there is eventually only room for one option, not both. There will always be the niche markets with low volumes, high prices. But that niche will be so small, you will not anymore have electronic (or hi-fi) stores even in all larger cities to supply. That will make it even more niche and smaller manufacturers will disappear with their brand names reused for the masses.

Also, i don’t think the older generations will make a business. If/when they need to renew the hardware, they will follow the advice from younger generations. They too, appreciate usability, perhaps even more so than many sound quality enthustiastic young people. A set-up consisting of equipment that has to be manually operated with five separate infernally designed remotes is not an option for the average person in 2024.

I don't see this happening right now, at least not here in Germany.

Yes, there has been a meaningful market consolidation at least 10 to 20 years ago and it's probably still going on, but at a much lower rate now. Small specialist shops are getting a bit rare, but really big shops selling high-end stuff only have taken over. Specialist manufacturers serving an advanced market in the past have shifted their product range even more upmarket (with prices for top-of-the-line products skyrocketing).

The death of high fidelity has been announced many times and by now nobody can impress their friends with better HiFi gear. But there's still a lot of life in the absolute top class market and a new generation of entry level devices.

 

[dimangiful]

I don't see this happening right now, at least not here in Germany.

Yes, there has been a meaningful market consolidation at least 10 to 20 years ago and it's probably still going on, but at a much lower rate now. Small specialist shops are getting a bit rare, but really big shops selling high-end stuff only have taken over. Specialist manufacturers serving an advanced market in the past have shifted their product range even more upmarket (with prices for top-of-the-line products skyrocketing).

The death of high fidelity has been announced many times and by now nobody can impress their friends with better HiFi gear. But there's still a lot of life in the absolute top class market and a new generation of entry level devices.

It can be, and stuff like the vinyls brought back is certainly interesting. I think it's not a question if it is a niche, but rather how large a niche. Back in the day the large electronic chains had dedicated departments for AVRs. Nowadays they don't have any, and no proper sections for speakers, subwoofers, cables etc. All they sell is bluetooth speakers and soundbars. You need to find a specialised Hi-Fi dealer, which at least where I live are still alive, but becoming less every year. I have no numbers if the market size is changing, but it is suffering the same as every brick-and-mortar, moving to the web. In the web the low-cost options have certain edge over high-end.

In the old days everyone invested in Hi-Fi setup with dedicated AVRs. Today most have got rid of them. In my circle of friends, only a few have AVR today. Most have soundbars and BT Wi-Fi mono speakers and headphones.

 

[Fender]

I don't see this happening right now, at least not here in Germany.

Yes, there has been a meaningful market consolidation at least 10 to 20 years ago and it's probably still going on, but at a much lower rate now. Small specialist shops are getting a bit rare, but really big shops selling high-end stuff only have taken over. Specialist manufacturers serving an advanced market in the past have shifted their product range even more upmarket (with prices for top-of-the-line products skyrocketing).

The death of high fidelity has been announced many times and by now nobody can impress their friends with better HiFi gear. But there's still a lot of life in the absolute top class market and a new generation of entry level devices.

Eventually in Germany we live in a land of bliss. But I do not think its different at least in (Western) Europe, the UK, the US and Japan to name only a handful.
Living at the edge of Rhine-Main Metropole region in a small town below 100.000 inhabitants we have one very good hifi shop and at least ten, including five only "high end" shops, for years and no sign of weakness within 100 km driving distance.
The most relevant issue for the traditional shops in my opinion is the laziness and "the try and send easily back" attitude of people educated by Amazon and consorts. A few shops did not survive this or did not react appropriate but thats how markets regulate themselves in systems like ours.

 

[es6rd6z]

People don't listen to music in the same way as they used to.

I don't think this is true. Most people have only ever listened to music on cheap radios with very cheap speakers and found no issue with it. There are now more options than ever to listen to music, and in fact the average quality of cheap music formats, Bluetooth speakers, earbuds, headphones, etc, has only gone up in recent years. Even YouTube's terrible audio compression has improved significantly. This is also the cheapest it's ever been to get a high quality music setup, and where there are always newcomers to high quality audio, there isn't anyone who, after enjoying said high quality for a number of years, says "screw this, I want to hear my music from a cheap tinny mono speaker".

 

[cooky560]

I don't think this is true. Most people have only ever listened to music on cheap radios with very cheap speakers and found no issue with it. There are now more options than ever to listen to music, and in fact the average quality of cheap music formats, Bluetooth speakers, earbuds, headphones, etc, has only gone up in recent years. Even YouTube's terrible audio compression has improved significantly. This is also the cheapest it's ever been to get a high quality music setup, and where there are always newcomers to high quality audio, there isn't anyone who, after enjoying said high quality for a number of years, says "screw this, I want to hear my music from a cheap tinny mono speaker".

I can of course only speak from my own bubble. However I remember when every house I went to had a half decent hifi in the living room, with either bookshelves or floorstanders, that sounded decent.

Today, those same houses contain either a soundbar connected to the TV and no hifi, or one of these mini systems.

 

[castalla]

And many just use a smartphone.... to listen to 99% rubbish noise

 

[dimangiful]

Eventually in Germany we live in a land of bliss. But I do not think its different at least in (Western) Europe, the UK, the US and Japan to name only a handful.
Living at the edge of Rhine-Main Metropole region in a small town below 100.000 inhabitants we have one very good hifi shop and at least ten, including five only "high end" shops, for years and no sign of weakness within 100 km driving distance.
The most relevant issue for the traditional shops in my opinion is the laziness and "the try and send easily back" attitude of people educated by Amazon and consorts. A few shops did not survive this or did not react appropriate but thats how markets regulate themselves in systems like ours.

Never lived in Germany, visited many times. The impression I have is that it's quite conservative. Cash still used in a lot of places, small hardware stores exists even in downtown Munich. It's what we had in the 80s/90s in Northern Europe. The change will eventually come

 

[Fender]

Never lived in Germany, visited many times. The impression I have is that it's quite conservative. Cash still used in a lot of places, small hardware stores exists even in downtown Munich. It's what we had in the 80s/90s in Northern Europe. The change will eventually come

The good thing is that I most likely will not experience it ;-)

 

[Steve Woodhouse]

I think a lot of houses in the ‘90s had mini systems - you know, the ones that came with two small bookshelf speakers, and then all the electrics in a box in the middle of around the same size.

Those appear to have been swapped for smart speakers, Sonos, etc.

Meanwhile, and parallel to that, soundbars. Many people had their hi-fi set up with speakers either side of the TV.

Just my take on it.

 

[wiimamp user]

I have _in my youth_ known lots of people with very expensive hifi gear. So i know how good and hifi installation can sound.
My fascination began there... i never forget i heard some quite expensive B&W speakers i was blown away how the sounded. Or how excellent a good amp can sound...

Now i think the youth will not be interested any more in physical media i think thats a problem. Also a problem is ( in my opinion) manufacturers are trying to go with the modern times( streaming) but never really did implented it in a good way.
But a company like WIIM offers modern hifi acquipment that actually works for a superb price. A very good app and hardware that delivers exceptional good sound and has also the possibility to use in for watching tv netflix( HDMI arc). You can make any amp modern if you buy an mini or a wiim pro or pro plus. The hardware is very important they knew this but the software is no less important,including support giving to you,re costumers ..that they have also taken very seriously. And they stand for what they are making.

I think in this manner you can convince young and people who are not so familiar with hifi products to invest in such a device in stead of lets say a bleutooth speaker or a soundbar. Hifi still alive...

 

[Malkie]

Up until recently, I owned a 22k system that sounded great. I decided to downsize after moving to a new condo and sold everything.
I replaced it with high end ADAM Audio monitors, a quality preamp and DAC along with WiiM Pro.
To be honest....I much prefer the sound I have now! It's great.
Music is harder to come by now unless you're into pop etc ...music to simply listen to is getting rare in my opinion. I find myself looking for new and interesting music but it's pretty difficult.
All this to say....I paid too much before and like I said....those professional monitors are fantastic.