Qobuz & Wiim Pro and Mini

[steadyshot]

@steadyshot
In this special case what is the source for you ? The file or the streamer?

The file is the constant in this equation. So the streamer is the variable in my case. And if I used a streaming dac I would say both the streamer and dac.

 

[steadyshot]

For me modern streamers and dacs, even dacs in integrated amps, are the constant. Means decent enough to fulfill all listenable requirements.
The following sections makes it. For me. Because absolutely not interested in measurements. Another way...but thanks heaven we have a choice

I agree that current measurement methodology is insufficient to capture all sonic differences. And because in the end we have to live with the equipment I prefer to like what I hear!

 

[Brantome]

So, music first. If the music is garage.....the best gear can not rescue.

Yeah "Source First" has been the philosophy of Linn systems for decades perhaps explaining the success of their LP12 turntables

 

[Patricia P]

So, music first. If the music is garage.....the best gear can not rescue.

Garage is garbage, so I agree

 

[onlyoneme]

I agree that current measurement methodology is insufficient to capture all sonic differences. And because in the end we have to live with the equipment I prefer to like what I hear!

There is no sonic difference to be captured, there is a sound to be captured and further analyzed to show the sonic difference for example. In an unbiased manner which makes it superior to the audibility impressions of average and untrained listeners.

 

[steadyshot]

There is no sonic difference to be captured, there is a sound to be captured and further analyzed to show the sonic difference for example. In an unbiased manner which makes it superior to the audibility impressions of average and untrained listeners.

So following this logic we can group equipment with similar measurements and conclude that the sonic output is similar.

 

[steadyshot]

So following this logic we can group equipment with similar measurements and conclude that the sonic output is similar.

To add on this. If the answer is yes, do you suggest that for example two amplifiers from different brands , are difficult to tell apart in a blind test?

 

[Patricia P]

I get it, I have been patronised by ASR people too when I talk psychoacoustics (how age and experience can affect how you hear), but (and it’s a big but) amir&co test high end gear that is sold as being capable of high definition, bit perfect reproduction of music which fails miserably.

They show measurable differences, so it’s not an opinion but raised to the status of fact.

But no one should decide what I want to listen to, just as my sister loves her tiny usb speaker and I can’t bear it.

 

[steadyshot]

I get it, I have been patronised by ASR people too when I talk psychoacoustics (how age and experience can affect how you hear), but (and it’s a big but) amir&co test high end gear that is sold as being capable of high definition, bit perfect reproduction of music which fails miserably.

They show measurable differences, so it’s not an opinion but raised to the status of fact.

But no one should decide what I want to listen to, just as my sister loves her tiny usb speaker and I can’t bear it.

Look if all problems are spotted and know how to build based on measurements, then there is no need for different equipment. If it is attainable to get near perfect measurements, assuming that materials and other characteristic properties have effects that are already captured in measurements of the sound output, then there is no reason for so many brands and equipment. You get something that measures well and everything else is not necessary because you cannot get better sound than that.

 

[steadyshot]

If we dismiss hearing as totally unreliable, then there is no opposition to the fact that all effects of sound output are fully captured by the current measurements. So no point to discuss with such an absolute position. How you prove that all your measurements capture all sound characteristics without many people hearing and statistically confirming that. But on the other hand I will accept this if I listen to different speakers or amplifiers etc with similar measurements from different brands and the sound impression will be similar.

 

[onlyoneme]

So following this logic we can group equipment with similar measurements and conclude that the sonic output is similar.

Would you conclude about the weight by measuring the height? All depends on the proper measurements choice.
If you capture and compare plenty of materials and the results would be bit perfect to the source then you can conclude that outputs are sonically the same.

 

[onlyoneme]

@onlyoneme
As an untrained and average listener I would recommend you would have a closer look on untrained and average reviewers. To collect the whole stated bs on ASR would fill kilometers of books. My only wish is that people do not think every single posted statement there is proven. One way...not the only way. But some of these reviewers see themself as prophet and as solely owners of the truth. It starts with two different oscilloscopes delivering two different results. Maybe I am obsessed with this issue, but the development of this "scientists" makes me angry.

Every path can deliver blind followers.

 

[onlyoneme]

To add on this. If the answer is yes, do you suggest that for example two amplifiers from different brands , are difficult to tell apart in a blind test?

Can be easy, can be difficult.

 

[onlyoneme]

I get it, I have been patronised by ASR people too when I talk psychoacoustics (how age and experience can affect how you hear), but (and it’s a big but) amir&co test high end gear that is sold as being capable of high definition, bit perfect reproduction of music which fails miserably.

They show measurable differences, so it’s not an opinion but raised to the status of fact.

But no one should decide what I want to listen to, just as my sister loves her tiny usb speaker and I can’t bear it.

It's not about deciding regarding your preferences. When a device X has higher THD level than device B, it tells nothing about which one you would prefer to listen to.

 

[onlyoneme]

Some people prefer to keep audio as esoteric as possible.

 

[steadyshot]

Would you conclude about the weight by measuring the height? All depends on the proper measurements choice.
If you capture and compare plenty of materials and the results would be bit perfect to the source then you can conclude that outputs are sonically the same.

No. But do you suggest that every relevant measurement is out there ready to be used? Are you sure you are not missing anything?

 

[onlyoneme]

No. But do you suggest that every relevant measurement is out there ready to be used? Are you sure you are not missing anything?

I have no idea why you think I'm suggesting such a thing.

 

[steadyshot]

I have no idea why you think I'm suggesting such a thing.

Because the mentality in ASR is if something exists we should already have measured it. If not it is placebo

 

[onlyoneme]

Because the mentality in ASR is if something exists we should already have measured it. If not it is placebo

It's not the ASR mentality. Existence of anything is based on the proof of being detected or measured if you prefer such word. That's the contradiction to beliefs.

 

[onlyoneme]

If you would replace esoteric with emotional you get my signature
For me there is nothing more unsexy and unemotional than a graph. But I am sure we are not really far away from each other because I wouldn't expect you chose your time intensive methods without loving music.

Different approaches complement each other. It's always weird to me why it's so hard to understand by some people. You can negate the value of scientific way, I do not care. I use both.