Room Correction and REL sub

[ginger_ninja]

Hi all, have gone down a rabbit hole with RC and could do with some help! I have ditched the Pro and got a Pro Plus on the way. Rest of my set up is

REL Tzero mkiii sub
Monitor Audio Bronze 50
Onkyo A-9010

The sub is connected as per REL's method - high level connections to the R/L positive speaker terminals on my amp. The sub frequency is -6dB at 37 Hz. My speakers' frequency is 40hz-30Khz. Could someone recommend some basic RC settings for this setup? Everything I've found is for the Amp/Ultra and involves bass management. Should RC be done with the sub on or off? I have read the frequency should ideally be capped at 400hz (ish) max. What about the lower end? Should I set it above the cutoff of my mains, i.e. 50hz, or lower to allow for the sub, i.e. 30hz? Oh and I have a Dayton iMM6 USB mic for my Android phone (which is recognised by RC). Am open to any suggestions!

 

[MCG555]

-Try to free up the speakers load on low frequency by increasing the gain of the sub (by e.g 6dB)
-Then do RC with the sub. As it does not really go deep I would choose 40-400Hz.
-I think you will be positively amazed!

 

[DG77]

Room correction is super individual and based on your listening room specifically, so you would need to measure and perform any corrections as per your room and preferences, it's hard to give you advice on what you should change.

But I would recommend not changing anything above 200Hz in my opinion, usually it's the low frequencies that cause issues and can make the most in way of improvement.
Since you have the sub connected to your AMP and not to the Wiim, you should leave it on and the RC on the wiim will include those frequencies when doing corrections, so set the range to 30-200Hz if managing bass is your goal!

Regarding crossover, that one I leave for someone else to answer
I would perhaps set the crossover so that your main speakers don't have to work too hard in the lower end, so perhaps at 80Hz?

 

[rccarguy]

That is a stereo integrated amp so you can't use bass management on the Wiim and also use the Onkyo, it wouldn't work that way, as you won't be able to match levels relative to onkyo and sub as you adjust volume on the onkyo.

There is no way knowing of what your sub is playing down to, room shape, size/volume, whether it's open, sub and seating placement will all change that.

You need to align the sub to the speakers first, one method is to run response sweeps at various degrees. Or connect sub to the wiim and use it's timing feature, then determine what phase degree that calculates to the reading it shows in the app.

The problem with a stereo system with the sub going off the L/R channels is as you adjust room correction it will effect speakers AND sub. This is not ideal, you want seperate left, right and subwoofer PEQ.

Also I'd probably upgrade the sub, it doesn't really go much lower than those speakers so it won't add much. High passing will help but currently you can't do that unless you ditch the Onyko and get wiim amp pro. Or replace the Onkyo with a integrated that has high pass some parasounds for example.

 

[rccarguy]

You'll need to work out best phase setting through the Rel

If you connect rel to onkyo then subwoofer has to be disabled in the wiim app. Otherwise it'll be send <80hz to the subwoofer pre out, which isn't connected to anything. So your speakers will sound bad and you'll be missing bass.

 

[ginger_ninja]

Room correction is super individual and based on your listening room specifically, so you would need to measure and perform any corrections as per your room and preferences, it's hard to give you advice on what you should change.

But I would recommend not changing anything above 200Hz in my opinion, usually it's the low frequencies that cause issues and can make the most in way of improvement.
Since you have the sub connected to your AMP and not to the Wiim, you should leave it on and the RC on the wiim will include those frequencies when doing corrections, so set the range to 30-200Hz if managing bass is your goal!

Regarding crossover, that one I leave for someone else to answer
I would perhaps set the crossover so that your main speakers don't have to work too hard in the lower end, so perhaps at 80Hz?

That's the sort of advice I was after, I'll keep that range in mind and see what the results are, thanks!

 

[ginger_ninja]

That is a stereo integrated amp so you can't use bass management on the Wiim and also use the Onkyo, it wouldn't work that way, as you won't be able to match levels relative to onkyo and sub as you adjust volume on the onkyo.

There is no way knowing of what your sub is playing down to, room shape, size/volume, whether it's open, sub and seating placement will all change that.

You need to align the sub to the speakers first, one method is to run response sweeps at various degrees. Or connect sub to the wiim and use it's timing feature, then determine what phase degree that calculates to the reading it shows in the app.

The problem with a stereo system with the sub going off the L/R channels is as you adjust room correction it will effect speakers AND sub. This is not ideal, you want seperate left, right and subwoofer PEQ.

Also I'd probably upgrade the sub, it doesn't really go much lower than those speakers so it won't add much. High passing will help but currently you can't do that unless you ditch the Onyko and get wiim amp pro. Or replace the Onkyo with a integrated that has high pass some parasounds for example.

Yes I know I can't use bass management, I mentioned that I have a Pro Plus (so can't connect my sub to that). And I'm very happy with the sub actually, I don't really understand the 'you must upgrade' approach? Sure, it doesn't go much lower than the speakers if you look at raw specs, but it is spot on for my small room, it adds a bit of extra punch, so it's staying! Am not after a hugely complex set of room measurements, am just after a starter set to see if RC adds anything. I'd previously done RC with the Pro and it sounded absolutely terrible, so am trying to 'reset' my approach and start from scratch.

 

[rccarguy]

You need to get the sub and speakers aligned, otherwise any correction will just make it worse. look at my picture above that is what phase on a sub does.

so you will need to try various phase settings to see where it blends in the best- THEN perform correction on the L/R/sub combined signal

 

[ginger_ninja]

You'll need to work out best phase setting through the Rel

If you connect rel to onkyo then subwoofer has to be disabled in the wiim app. Otherwise it'll be send <80hz to the subwoofer pre out, which isn't connected to anything. So your speakers will sound bad and you'll be missing bass.

I thought that you can only select sub on/off in the app if you have a sub connected to the Amp or Ultra?

 

[ginger_ninja]

You need to get the sub and speakers aligned, otherwise any correction will just make it worse. look at my picture above that is what phase on a sub does.

so you will need to try various phase settings to see where it blends in the best- THEN perform correction on the L/R/sub combined signal

Well there are only 2 phase settings....do you mean setting the crossover/gain?

 

[rccarguy]

Well there are only 2 phase settings....do you mean setting the crossover/gain?

Ah that limits your sub/speaker integration, ideally you'd want adjustable phase. Rel should have added variable phase no 0/180.

No , crossover and gain or two other settings, since you're sending full range to the sub you'd probably want that around 60-80hz or so. Gain is volume

 

[rccarguy]

I thought that you can only select sub on/off in the app if you have a sub connected to the Amp or Ultra?

But you're not connecting the sub to the wiim pre out. So you don't want that. Think about it, if you enable subwoofer in the wiim that high passes your speakers. Then it sends <80hz to the subwoofer pre out.

Are you using the subwoofer pre out? Nope. So the signal goes nowhere. It's basically discarding <80hz

 

[ginger_ninja]

Ah that limits your sub/speaker integration, ideally you'd want adjustable phase. Rel should have added variable phase no 0/180.

No , crossover and gain or two other settings, since you're sending full range to the sub you'd probably want that around 60-80hz or so. Gain is volume

Sure, thought you were referring to the crossover etc as 'phase', confused me briefly. Yeah there's a toggle for 0/180 only. REL subs are a bit odd, there is no 'select 80hz', you just have a range, and their recommended dial in method is very unscientific, it's basically done by ear. I did get it sounding pretty damn good, but could do with doing it again from scratch before running RC on my new Wiim

 

[ginger_ninja]

But you're not connecting the sub to the wiim pre out. So you don't want that. Think about it, if you enable subwoofer in the wiim that high passes your speakers. Then it sends <80hz to the subwoofer pre out.

Are you using the subwoofer pre out? Nope. So the signal goes nowhere. It's basically discarding <80hz

But if connecting a sub to my Wiim isn't possible, will there still be an option for sub on/off in the app? I really should have started this thread after my Wiim arrived so I could answer some of these questions myself

 

[rccarguy]

One work around is to connect the Rel to the Wiim, enable subwoofer and for your typical listening level calibrate the sub to the mains. That allows you high pass the speakers, get subwoofer integration, and left, right and subwoofer EQ

The drawback is when you adjust the Onkyo volume the sub will be out of calibration. It's doable and pros could outweight the cons. Another work around to that is to enable variable level on the wiim, so you match the components in volume then perform master volume in the wiim, so the speakers/sub will be in matched in volume. So in effect the onkyo becomes a power amplifier.

That means the sub will only work with the wiim source, it won't work with any other device ie CD player or record (unless you connect them to the wiim)

 

[rccarguy]

But if connecting a sub to my Wiim isn't possible, will there still be an option for sub on/off in the app? I really should have started this thread after my Wiim arrived so I could answer some of these questions myself

If you send L/R from the Wiim to Onkyo then you want to disable the subwoofer control in the wiim app, as I saidin post 12. Your onkyo is stereo.

 

[ginger_ninja]

Sorry, am not with you, how can the REL be connected to the Wiim, there is no sub out?

 

[ginger_ninja]

If you send L/R from the Wiim to Onkyo then you want to disable the subwoofer control in the wiim app, as I saidin post 12. Your onkyo is stereo.

Ok, but as per my post, will there be an option for sub on/off in the app?

 

[rccarguy]

Sorry, am not with you, how can the REL be connected to the Wiim, there is no sub out?

oh I thought it did have a subwoofer pre out. Nevermind then.

in that case it's stereo only, so Rel connects to Onkyo. If there is any subwoofer setting in the Wiim, then disable it.

 

[ginger_ninja]

Another work around to that is to enable variable level on the wiim, so you match the components in volume then perform master volume in the wiim, so the speakers/sub will be in matched in volume. So in effect the onkyo becomes a power amplifier.

That means the sub will only work with the wiim source, it won't work with any other device ie CD player or record (unless you connect them to the wiim)

I was actually considering this setup anyway - have the Onkyo at fixed volume & use the Wiim remote to adjust volume. Am going to be connecting my cd player via RCA and my TV via optical to the Wiim anyway, so that could work