Safely Using Pre Gain without Clipping

[EddNog]

If I’m using ReplayGain, but not room correction or PEQ, is it safe to apply some positive adjustment in the Pre Gain control under Inputs without causing distortion or clipping? I use an external room correction/bass management/tone control DSP (DSPeaker’s Anti-Mode X2D), and due to the use of the tone control feature to apply a Harman curve, I lose a substantial amount of gain, and with the VibeLink connecting digitally to the Anti-Mode’s output, I can’t just jam a preamp with active gain in there to get more gain. I am hoping that (at least theoretically) I can apply (maybe no more than +5dB) a positive gain in the Pre Gain panel to get some gain back, especially since I use ReplayGain to help reduce big up or down volume changes between songs on my mixed playlists in Qobuz.

Anyone got advice and/or experience in general with positive settings in the Pre Gain panel, especially used in conjunction with ReplayGain? In reality there are only a handful of tracks in my library where I currently peg volume at 100 and it’s still a smidge not loud enough (such as Karajan conducting Beethoven or Carmen performed by All-Star Percussion Ensemble…highly dynamic orchestral pieces that ought to be very loud when hitting peak passages), and they’re still just slightly less loud than I want to go.

-Ed

 

[tsfreo]

If I’m using ReplayGain, but not room correction or PEQ, is it safe to apply some positive adjustment in the Pre Gain control under Inputs without causing distortion or clipping? I use an external room correction/bass management/tone control DSP (DSPeaker’s Anti-Mode X2D), and due to the use of the tone control feature to apply a Harman curve, I lose a substantial amount of gain, and with the VibeLink connecting digitally to the Anti-Mode’s output, I can’t just jam a preamp with active gain in there to get more gain. I am hoping that (at least theoretically) I can apply (maybe no more than +5dB) a positive gain in the Pre Gain panel to get some gain back, especially since I use ReplayGain to help reduce big up or down volume changes between songs on my mixed playlists in Qobuz.

Anyone got advice and/or experience in general with positive settings in the Pre Gain panel, especially used in conjunction with ReplayGain? In reality there are only a handful of tracks in my library where I currently peg volume at 100 and it’s still a smidge not loud enough (such as Karajan conducting Beethoven or Carmen performed by All-Star Percussion Ensemble…highly dynamic orchestral pieces that ought to be very loud when hitting peak passages), and they’re still just slightly less loud than I want to go.

-Ed

I note that your post has not gotten a reply - and I have a sort of related question. But before I get to that, if I understand what you are asking then my instinct is to say yes, there is a problem with adding 5db of pre gain if you are at max volume on your device and you are trying to make the output louder still. I think that would cause clipping.

My query was about adding a fair bit of pre gain, say 7db, to a line in on the Wiim Ultra when it is receiving an unbalanced signal from a Zen Phono (MM cartridge - 94dB (A) MM re 2V BAL/1V UNBAL) given my vinyl output sounds much lower than when using the Wiim as a streamer.
I have a separate preamp handling volume control.
I have used a db meter to measure volume when playing the songs from the same album on vinyl vs streaming and even with 7db pre gain applied the vinyl volume is still a little lower, but I have not heard any clipping (I think). But it is much closer in overall volume level when switching from the line in (vinyl) to streaming.
I'm comparing about a low 70s db in room listening level using Tidal and my preamp at about 50%. So I think I have plenty of amp headroom. I have read the various posts about using pre gain, and I understand the usual use would be to lower pre gain when using EQ, but would anyone have a view about whether a reasonably high positive pre gain with the vinyl input? Digital clipping seems to be the risk. But it is so much more convenient for me, and easier for the other users in the house, if about the same volume level on my preamp produces about the same volume whether using streaming or vinyl from the Wiim Ultra. If that makes sense.

 

[canard]

If the phono stage gain (in mm? in mc? on which cartridge? its output level? ) is insufficient for your cartridge (this is quite common as there's no real standard)...

you have no little risk of saturating the ADC...and it seems to me that adjusting the pre-gain in this specific case (which should be later in the signal chain) shouldn't cause any problems...
;-)

 

[tsfreo]

If the phono stage gain (in mm? in mc? on which cartridge? its output level? ) is insufficient for your cartridge (this is quite common as there's no real standard)...

you have no little risk of saturating the ADC...and it seems to me that adjusting the pre-gain in this specific case (which should be later in the signal chain) shouldn't cause any problems...
;-)

Thank you. Much appreciated your reply.

I did hope that was right; that a low gain from the phono preamp means that an increase in pre gain on the Wiim Ultra should not introduce a problem. I do not generally listen at levels beyond low 70s db. Into the 80s when things are really turned up on rare occasion, but still well within the range of my amp/speakers

I am using a MM cartridge. Planar 1 using the standard Rega Carbon MM cartridge (I'm not a big vinyl person - very limited expertise in that space).
I'm using an original ifi Zen Phono pre amp (not the later model). If I understand its specs it is pretty low gain in its MM setting - 36dB (+/- 1dB).
Then that Zen feeds the Wiim Ultra, then into a Rotel preamp 1572 mkII and Rotel 1552 mkii power amp to Wharfedale Lintons.

 

[canard]

Just
Cartdrige mm at 2.5mV, not a very high level, ..on a preamp with not a very high mm gain
;-)

 

[harkpabst]

I did hope that was right; that a low gain from the phono preamp means that an increase in pre gain on the Wiim Ultra should not introduce a problem. I do not generally listen at levels beyond low 70s db. Into the 80s when things are really turned up on rare occasion, but still well within the range of my amp/speakers

I agree that this scenario shouldn't impose a problem. In fact, this is what I do with my WiiM Amp Ultra (external phono stage), with my WiiM Ultra (built-in phono stage) and even my Lyngdorf TDAI-1120 main system amp (built-in phono stage).

Note that the possible digital clipping does not depend on the speakers' sound pressure levels. If there is digital clipping in your streamer, it will distort very audibly even at low listening volume.

If I understand its specs it is pretty low gain in its MM setting - 36dB (+/- 1dB).
Then that Zen feeds the Wiim Ultra, then into a Rotel preamp 1572 mkII and Rotel 1552 mkii power amp to Wharfedale Lintons.

A high input level at the analogue input is generally desirable to not lose any resolution of the ADC, but - as @canard pointed out already - overdriving the ADC (into clipping) at the loudest part of a recording is much, much worse than giving up a few decibels of theoretical dynamic range.

Also, a phono input/pre-amp with no difference but just higher gain would also have higher noise, so there's little to be gained. Any alternative phono stage would need both, lower internal noise and higher gain.

You really should be fine.

 

[tsfreo]

If there is digital clipping in your streamer, it will distort very audibly even at low listening volume.

Thank you for your detailed reply.
Ultimately, trying to understand the risk of digital clipping in my use case was what I was trying to figure out.
I have played a few records experimenting with a pre gain of between 5 and 7 db and to my ears I cannot hear any clipping. But in chasing the convenience of bringing sound output levels closer (but not equal) between using vinyl and the streamer I of course do not want to risk damaging my equipment.
Given everyone's helpful replies I think I can safely use 5db pre gain on my Wiim Ultra line in fed by my phono preamp to bring the ultimate volume output more consistent between using the streamer and playing vinyl. That is a help in a system used by family from time to time that are not going to dig into these issues and at the same time they will not be taking as much care to regulate the volume when switching between sources.

 

[tsfreo]

Also, a phono I put with no difference but just higher gain would also have higher noise, so there's little to be gained. Any alternative phono stage would need both, lower internal noise and higher gain.

I figured as much. I would not plan on changing my phono pre - I don't play enough vinyl to warrant going down that rabbit hole.

 

[harkpabst]

I have played a few records experimenting with a pre gain of between 5 and 7 db and to my ears I cannot hear any clipping. But in chasing the convenience of bringing sound output levels closer (but not equal) between using vinyl and the streamer I of course do not want to risk damaging my equipment.

If you listen at moderate levels even digital clipping won't damage your amp or speakers. If 7 dB didn't give you any problems with your selection of records and the level still isn't fully on par with streaming sources, I'd happily keep it at 7 dB.

In addition, you could also slightly reduce the pre-gain setting for Ethernet/Wi-Fi.