Ultra to Vibelink connection

[cmcc]

What's the optimal connection between the Ultra and Vibelink considering I'll use the Ultra for volume control? Analog/RCA or digital out to Vibelink? I thought I have read that analog into the Vibelink provides 100w/ch vs 60w/ch for digital inputs. I understand the Vibelink DAC is newer, but is it that much improved (and circuitry around the DAC) in the Vibelink to go for a digital input?
Thanks for any suggestions/opinions.

 

[Ivan]

First off all, "hey" isn't a term I like to be addressed with, so avoid it.

Regarding the issue, I buy based on what's described to me, and I expect to get what's advertised and described.

200 watts into 4 ohms, 100 watts into 4 ohms, regardless of whether the input is digital or RCA.
It doesn't seem like that's the case, unless someone explains the facts in detail.

So I think there's a problem.
No one has answered this, quite the opposite.

 

[MrAlexH]

More strange is that anybody of us make a big complaint on that, and all are so happy with the NON explanation of what (if proven real) it's a big difformity between what is promised and advertised to what is real.
Everywhere and particularly here, on this forum.
But...

I'm just curious how things work, and since its the first time seeing that an amp goes down on power using rca it's no wonder why people ask despite the explanation in the q&a on this

 

[slartibartfast]

Hey if you don't like it, don't buy it. That's why we have choices.

-Ed

The reason for the difference (processing of the analog signal) doesn't appear to make sense though. One of the selling points was that the analog input did not pass through an ADC.

 

[Burnside]

This is primarily a user support and discussion forum and while WiiM do frequent it from time to time, if you want an answer straight from the horse’s mouth, raise a ticket directly to them via the more/feedback section in the WiiM Home app or use the Contact Us link at the bottom of this page.

 

[Ivan]

So, I gather, this forum is just for spamming tons of "room correction" adjustment curves, or for asking for a VU meter display, or for praising how great Wiim products are.

But if they promote and describe a 100 watt amplifier that's actually a 60 watt one, we shouldn't post about it. In fact, we should say it's fine and it's not a forum topic?

And if we do, politely, a group of loyalists will come and yell at us?

I ask.

 

[Burnside]

So, I gather, this forum is just for spamming tons of "room correction" adjustment curves, or for asking for a VU meter display, or for praising how great Wiim products are.

But if they promote and describe a 100 watt amplifier that's actually a 60 watt one, we shouldn't post about it. In fact, we should say it's fine and it's not a forum topic?

And if we do, politely, a group of loyalists will come and yell at us?

I ask.

That’s a perverse response. Nobody is stopping you posting about it or discussing it, merely saying don’t expect WiiM to necessarily come here and answer it. Contacting them directly has a better chance of achieving that.

 

[slartibartfast]

That’s a perverse response. Nobody is stopping you posting about it or discussing it, merely saying don’t expect WiiM to necessarily come here and answer it. Contacting them directly has a better chance of achieving that.

I reckon they would just repeat the explanation already available in the forum even if it makes no sense

 

[MrAlexH]

So as have understood so far they lower the output to make distortion etc lower, wonder why other manufactures doesn't do this is it even possible to hear the difference at all?
Can't say with other amps I've had all these years that they lower the output on analog side versus digital to make it "better"

 

[EddNog]

So as have understood so far they lower the output to make distortion etc lower, wonder why other manufactures doesn't do this is it even possible to hear the difference at all?
Can't say with other amps I've had all these years that they lower the output on analog side versus digital to make it "better"

There are other manufacturers doing this; a good example is Topping. Lower gain results in lower noise & distortion, but you also risk insufficient volume levels despite plenty of power.

As for whether or not the difference is audible, I stay out of that discussion.

-Ed

 

[EddNog]

I think the interesting thing there is the comment 'Processing and receiving the analog input has a tendency to increase the temperature at high levels.'

What additional processing happens on the analog input to cause the increase in temperature that doesn't happen with the digital one? Once the digital signal has gone through the DAC, they'd be the same wouldn't they?

Maybe instead of having ultra sonic filters like DACs (some of which let you select the filter type), the ADC just converts all the leftover noise from the conversion into thermal energy!

-Ed









That's a joke, in case you can't tell.

 

[slartibartfast]

Maybe instead of having ultra sonic filters like DACs (some of which let you select the filter type), the ADC just converts all the leftover noise from the conversion into thermal energy!

-Ed









That's a joke, in case you can't tell.

If there was an ADC WiiM would use that answer

 

[Ivan]

I might not even care about the why or how; it just needs to be stated and clearly written upfront in the product specifications.

100 W into 8 Ohms on digital inputs
60 W (or whatever) into 8 Ohms for analog input.

This is assuming it's true, that is, some independent testers claim to have measured these values instrumentally, but—and here the patch is worse than the hole—no one from Wiim has said the truth, perhaps contradicting—with data in hand—the values found by some online.

The vague and empty justification that they need to keep the power under control to avoid overheating, etc.... means nothing, it's political jargon.
An amplifier is what it can deliver, period.
If it's 60 (for a thousand reasons, temperature management, distortion, or whatever) it's a 60, not a 100.

 

[hgo58]

I might not even care about the why or how; it just needs to be stated and clearly written upfront in the product specifications.

100 W into 8 Ohms on digital inputs
60 W (or whatever) into 8 Ohms for analog input.

This is assuming it's true, that is, some independent testers claim to have measured these values instrumentally, but—and here the patch is worse than the hole—no one from Wiim has said the truth, perhaps contradicting—with data in hand—the values found by some online.

The vague and empty justification that they need to keep the power under control to avoid overheating, etc.... means nothing, it's political jargon.
An amplifier is what it can deliver, period.
If it's 60 (for a thousand reasons, temperature management, distortion, or whatever) it's a 60, not a 100.

And how can this forum help here, more than already done?

 

[EddNog]

If there was an ADC WiiM would use that answer

Or would they be dodgey because (for reasons we may not know) they don't want that information to get out in public!

-Ed

 

[harkpabst]

Hi there, I have a question regarding the vibelink's rca input: I've read that it is supposed to provide only half of the amp's power capability, but this doesn't appear on the tech specs provided by wiim, does it? Or at least not the ones I found on wiimhome.com

You're absolutely right, there's no mention of a limited power output (60 W instead of 100 W into 8 ohm, 120 W instead of 200 W into 4 ohm) when using the RCA inputs anywhere in the device specs on the website or in the online user manual.

TL; DR:
That's pretty much the whole story from my point of view.

The lower power output has been mentioned by WiiM in this forum and yes, it could also be found in the Vibelink Amp printed manual (at least for the first batch of amplifiers):

The explanation given in the above mentioned edition of WiiM Talks has been - let me put that clearly - rather adding to the confusion.

Now, the real trouble with power measurements is how hard it is to compare them. It's just not like any amp naturally "having" a certain power output and reviewers just have to "confirm" it. Luckily some standards are pretty much established by now, but there is still a lot of discussion going on about how and what should be measured. We must make sure to compare them like for like.

Also, on Erin's Audio Corner it has been tested using the rca input and reached the power specs.

I'm not entirely sure if Erin explicitly mentioned that he's been using the RCA inputs (and unfortunately he still didn't publish the measurements of the Vibelink Amp on his website), but I think that you are 100% right again. Erin does mention that he managed to trigger the protection circuit ("sometimes I would feed it too much voltage for too long and it would basically just shut itself down"), which only makes sense when referring to the analogue input.

Also the pictures of his measuring setup clearly shows the RCA inputs to be used (and why wouldn't he do that directly with his AP analyzer?):



Now we have two different reviewers measuring, one using RCA (Erin) and one using TOSLINK. And if we don't just read the numbers but look at the actual graphs the results are identical, indeed. 200 W at 1% THD+N into 4 ohm.

Erin:


Amir:

Maybe I have missed something? Is this a real issue or just hearsay?

For me this case is really closed. It's not just been hearsay, the confusing information did come from WiiM. But I don't know and don't understand what made them being overly conservative when specifying the power output initially.

The WiiM Vibelink Amp just works and sounds beautifully and its operation temperature is objectively low under all conditions.

 

[Raphaellus_GC]

Erin mentioned it on the comments (see attached screenshot)

 

[harkpabst]

Erin mentioned it on the comments (see attached screenshot)

This is the final proof then.

 

[Raphaellus_GC]

The WiiM Vibelink Amp just works and sounds beautifully and its operation temperature is objectively low under all conditions.

It is also extremely versatile and with its analog volume control it puts an end to the problem of a dac or streamer going bananas amd sending an unattenuated signal. I find it a great product

 

[harkpabst]

It is also extremely versatile and with its analog volume control it puts an end to the problem of a dac or streamer going bananas amd sending an unattenuated signal. I find it a great product

For reasons that are beyond me some are never satisfied. Is it a power amp with too many features? Is it an integrated amp lacking network functions? Is it a desktop amp lacking a touchscreen and subwoofer output?

It just is what it is and makes sense in different scenarios. What's wrong with covering a range of use cases with one single design?

 

[QuarryHunslet]

For reasons that are beyond me some are never satisfied. Is it a power amp with too many features? Is it an integrated amp lacking network functions? Is it a desktop amp lacking a touchscreen and subwoofer output?

It just is what it is and makes sense in different scenarios. What's wrong with covering a range of use cases with one single design?

I would think that most people who have actually listened to it, rather than just watched YouTube videos about it, would agree that it is an excellent sounding amplifier, and a great match for the Ultra, and other WiiM streamers.