Ultra's Clock vs External DAC's Clock??

[Witterings]

Has anybody tried their Ultra using an external DAC and compared Coax and Optical out to USB out which will use the external DAC's clock instead of the Ultra's and did you notice any difference?

 

[hgo58]

There are many threads in this forum discussing this.

Some claim that they can hear a difference, most cannot. It probably depends on what DAC is used and the rest of the setup. And most importantly on what you are listening to.

 

[Witterings]

There are many threads in this forum discussing this.

Some claim that they can hear a difference, most cannot. It probably depends on what DAC is used and the rest of the setup. And most importantly on what you are listening to.

I certainly found one that was more about using an external DAC and read all 9 pages and whilst it touched on it, there wasn't much reference to using USB out as opposed to coax or optical.

Whlst I have a few WiiM Pro's, I currently have a Nano on trial and did notice a worthwhile difference using USB out.
I'd much prefer to stay with WiiM as they integrate with with my other devices and Alexa / Amazon Music so will probably pick an Ultra up after Xmas but just thought I#d see if a few people had comapred before I jump in.

 

[Valentino]

Why do you want to use an external DAC with the Ultra?

 

[Witterings]

Why do you want to use an external DAC with the Ultra?

Because I've tried a WiiM Pro with my Arcam SA30's onboard DAC and a Pro Plus using the Plus's DAC and also a Pro into my Chord Qutest which is a considerable improvement on the 1st two and as mentioned above I've also noticed an uplift in sound quality using a USB out from a Nano into the Qutest as opposed to using Coax or Optical out.

There are also a few reports of people saying they prefer the DAC used in the Pro Plus as opposed to the Ultra.

I haven't heard an Ultra myself and my only reason to buy one would be if using the USB out is comparable with using the USB out on the Bluesound Nano which is teh best combination I've found so far.

 

[hgo58]

Because I've tried a WiiM Pro with my Arcam SA30's onboard DAC and a Pro Plus using the Plus's DAC and also a Pro into my Chord Qutest which is a considerable improvement on the 1st two and as mentioned above I've also noticed an uplift in sound quality using a USB out from a Nano into the Qutest as opposed to using Coax or Optical out.

There are also a few reports of people saying they prefer the DAC used in the Pro Plus as opposed to the Ultra.

I haven't heard an Ultra myself and my only reason to buy one would be if using the USB out is comparable with using the USB out on the Bluesound Nano which is teh best combination I've found so far.

The DAC in the Ultra measure better than the Pro+ but I don't think you can hear the difference. Configuring the EQ/PEQ has a much bigger impact on the sound than what DAC you use, so try the Ultra analog output first.

 

[Witterings]

The DAC in the Ultra measure better than the Pro+ but I don't think you can hear the difference. Configuring the EQ/PEQ has a much bigger impact on the sound than what DAC you use, so try the Ultra analog output first.

I'd definitely try the analogue out as well and if it betters the Chord I can put some money back in my bank account

Whilst I appreciate the sound can be coloured to preference with EQ/PEQ, it won't change things like soundstage or detail / seperation of instruments, something I really notice with the Chord - with certain songs is the reverb of a room and sustain of a note, it's not with all tracks but is noticeable on ones like Mama This One's for You by Chantal Chamberland and This Love by Chlara ... just as a couple of examples.

 

[hgo58]

I'd definitely try the analogue out as well and if it betters the Chord I can put some money back in my bank account

Whilst I appreciate the sound can be coloured to preference with EQ/PEQ, it won't change things like soundstage or detail / seperation of instruments, something I really notice with the Chord - with certain songs is the reverb of a room and sustain of a note, it's not with all tracks but is noticeable on ones like Mama This One's for You by Chantal Chamberland and This Love by Chlara ... just as a couple of examples.

The only difference a DAC can make is on noise and distortion levels. The analog stage can color the sound just as digital EQ can. The soundstage and separation of instruments you hear is all down to this. Your speakers and placement in the room has much more to say here.

I always do experiments and often get surprised on how a little change in EQ can have major impact on the soundstage. It doesn't need to be expensive to get the good sound.

 

[Valentino]

^PEQ is actually a very nice tool for soundstaging. BBC (as the most known example) actually used (analogue) EQ for soundstaging 50 years ago.

 

[dtc]

The only difference a DAC can make is on noise and distortion levels.

The algorithms that different DACs use and the filters they use can change the sound. The bandwidth constraint required by the Nyquist (Shannon) Theorem means that each DAC needs to implement a specific algorithm to constrain the bandwidth and none of them are perfect. Even Wiim implements the different filters that the DAC chips provide. Those filters do sound different to some, not all, people. All DACs do not sound the same and it is more than just noise and distortion, unless by "distortion" you mean the differences caused by different implementations of the Nyquist Theorem. Sure, things like analog stages and equalizers can affect the sound, but so can the implementation of the D to A conversion.

And, yes speakers and amplifiers are probably more important the the DAC. But for a given set of speakers and amps, different DACs can sound different. Some people hear those differences, some do not. If you do not, then that is fine. But for others, different DACs sound different given the rest of the system stays the same. That's why people experiment with different DACs.

 

[dtc]

The original question is about the clocks on the Wiim versus the clocks on the external DAC. That really depends on how the DAC handles the incoming signals. Many DACs clock coax and optical signals with the same clock as used for the usb. So, their should be little difference in timing. People used to use external reclockers when the DACs did not reclock, but that has mostly gone away. In a well designed DAC, the clocking is not a big issue, but I am sure it is still there for some DACs.

 

[Witterings]

The only difference a DAC can make is on noise and distortion levels.

Both of which will have a direct impact on the sound.

 

[hgo58]

Both of which will have a direct impact on the sound.

Yes, if the level is audible.

 

[adias]

Like in most threads, absolute statements are not helpful. Nothing is absolute in audio. Everyone hears differently and equipment synergy varies. I have several WiiM streamers and they all sound different to me, even with the same external DAC. The Ultra sounds far more articulate tempo-wise and with a greater instrument separation when connected via USB to a very good external DAC. These are my views, YMMV.

 

[Witterings]

Yes, if the level is audible.

Which to me there certainly was going between the various setups as mentoned in post #5 above ... The Pro going through my Arcam's DAC (which is meant to be good), the bass up to vocals it just seemed like they're compressed together and there was also distortion and siblance towards the higher notes, The Pro + was better and had a wider soundstage, the Nano better again and the Qutest the best overall.

The compressing together at lower levels surely would be a perceived symptom from distortion as the sounds blend into each other, once you start removing that you'll get better seperation and detail of the instruments.

I will put this into perspective though, the next door neighbour who's been an audio enthusiast for many more years than me, with much more expensive equipment came round and heard the 1st one and said that sounds amazing so it is marginal levels of excellence but once you've heard it back to back, it's hard to then want to go back again.

 

[MrMan]

Chord Qutest .

$2400! (Australia)

 

[adias]

$2400! (Australia)

Price is another matter. There are higher priced devices that show no better performance, but others do.

I like and support WiiM devices but all my external DACs are significantly better than those. All cars go from A to B, others perform better though, and performance has different characteristics with different appeal to different people.

 

[adias]

…
I haven't heard an Ultra myself and my only reason to buy one would be if using the USB out is comparable with using the USB out on the Bluesound Nano which is teh best combination I've found so far.

Yes, the Ultra via USB out to a top tier DAC is quite good.

 

[Hiphiman]

Has anybody tried their Ultra using an external DAC and compared Coax and Optical out to USB out which will use the external DAC's clock instead of the Ultra's and did you notice any difference?

If there are any changes in sound quality between using USB and either coax or optical, I am not sure they can be attributed to clocking, partly because - as stated by others - DACs can now cope with the coax or optical asynchronous data streams to be like a synchronous USB input. More likely, I would have thought, a difference will be due to the differing electronics the streamer uses to generate each output and the DAC uses to handle each input.
It is interesting that the OP seems to prefer the USB input into his Chord Qutest. Without wishing to contradict this preference or to restart any debate, I seem to recall the Qutest’s designer, Rob Watts, describing the optical input as being the one with which he compares all else, at least in relation to Chord devices?

 

[hgo58]

DACs can now cope with the coax or optical asynchronous data streams to be like a synchronous USB input.

USB is asynchronous data package transfer, while SPDIF Toslink and Coax is a PCM synchronous bit stream.

If the signal source has a good internal clock (as the WiiM Ultra has) there is no difference in the resulting audio data, so any difference will be due to the external DACs handling of its input. It would be strange if there were any significant differences.