What external DAC to improve the Ultra?

[betisbalompie]

So, you've been lucky enough to get some help performing the level matched blind test?

Yes, my son, who has young ears, helped me

 

[betisbalompie]

Hello, I respect your opinion but I disagree.
I don't know how you connected the Ultra to the E70 Velvet.
I have it via USB, and the DAC is connected to the amplifier with some good Mogami XLR cables, and the difference compared to connecting the Ultra directly to the amplifier with a good RCA cable is substantial, I would say almost overwhelming.
They'll be my old rag e

Well, maybe I was exaggerating before, we've been testing again, with the difficulty of matching levels and the difference isn't that big. I simply hear more clarity by connecting the Ultra via USB to the Topping E70 Velvet and then to the amplifier using XLR Mogami Neglex 2549 and ViaBlue connectors. The other option, using the Ultra's own DAC with Wires4music's Horus MK2 RCA cable to the Audia Flight FL Three S amplifier, is also excellent and sounds very well.

 

[Persona Grata]

Yes, the differences are miniscule. The room and speakers are the most important. You can find great and cheap amplifiers and streamer/DAC/preamps now (like the Wiim Ultra), that are better than our human ears can distinguish between. Doesn't mean we still don't like good looking CNC machined chassis.

 

[guy48065]

I guess I'm now in the camp of "everything matters".
I bought a DAC that has both balanced & rca outputs, then bought a pair of inexpensive balanced cables made with Canare wire.
Female vocals were noticably less edgy, more natural.
Then I swapped the digital connection from the Wiim to DAC from optical to USB. Another veil removed. Instruments sound more immediate, imaging is more precise. This is surprising to me.
The improvement was heard on high bitrate or 44.1k sources.

I'm looking forward to more exploring tomorrow.

 

[Persona Grata]

"Faced with the choice between changing one’s mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof."
- John Kenneth Galbraith, Professor of Economics, Harvard University

Watch these videos by audio engineer Alain Paul:
DAC Scam:

The results:

What's very interesting is that after the test 54 % of the comments below the video still disagreed with the results and think they can hear big differences and they disagreed with the premise for the test.

PS. I have used thousands of dollars on different fancy hi-fi equipment over the last few years. This was on the level of being pathological. After many years of this practice and buying and listening to hundreds of different hifi-components I had to admit and change my mind. Today there are so many good sounding budget equipment that audiophile experience can be obtained by most people with an average income.

PPS. For those of us also being part of the op amp scam watch ASR's op amp rolling measurements:

 

[DamagedGoods]

I have tried four different external Delta Sigma DAC’s in the range of $100 to $700.

SMSL SU-1
iFi Zen DAC V2
Topping E70 Velvet
Gustard X16

After careful volume matching down to +-0.2 dB (it should preferably be 0.1, but I couldn’t get that close in all cases), I was unable to hear any difference in sound compared to the DAC in my WiiM Ultra when performing AB switching tests.

Before throwing in the towel I decided to try a multibit DAC too, so I ordered a Schiit Modi Multibit 2. Same there, no difference.

One exception: when running a DAC in NOS mode with a low resolution source, there will be an audible (and measurable) difference as treble will start rolling off early, and it will sound like sh*te. Always oversample.

Now before people start screaming about me being deaf, I want you to know that I took a hearing test about six months ago and ended up in the top 18th percentile for my age group (I’m 48), and top 29th percentile overall. While I have no super hearing, I am at least quite a bit above average. And that means statistically better hearing than the majority of people on this forum too.

My setup is as follows:

Speakers: Wharfedale Linton 85th
(Integrated) Amplifier: Musical Fidelity M5si
Subwoofer: Rel T9i
Streamer/DAC: WiiM Ultra

I have an analogue audio chain with several turntables and a high-end phono pre too, but I’ll leave that out of this discussion.

My listening room is treated and has a measured RT60 of < 250ms down to 100Hz. It’s a fairly small room with not perfect symmetry, but with the exception of a room mode peak at 45Hz which I am unable to resolve with only passive bass trapping, I have a decently flat frequency response at sweetspot.

I did not test with headphones so I can’t say anything about whether I would be able to hear a difference in a headphone setup.

My advice to anyone who is drawn into the current DAC craze, do this first:

1. Acoustically treat your room. It’s impossible to overemphasize how much of a difference this makes. Unless you at least treat first reflections, you will have no imaging to talk about since resonant sound will cause severe smearing effects.

2. Get the “best” speakers you can afford.

3. Spend time and effort into speaker placement, listening position and room layout. Measuring will make it a lot easier. You can use your ears for fine tuning if you like, but to detect and resolve room modes and SBIR is futile without a measuring mic and software.

3. Get a good quality preamp.

4. Get a low distortion power amp powerful enough to drive your speakers.

5. Use good source material, whether digital or analogue.

6. Get a streamer and DAC that serves your feature requirements. If used as pre-amp too, technical requirements will be higher.

And of course, your equipment and room works in synergy. In a medium sized room, something like 60-70% of all sound has usually reflected off a boundary before reaching your ears. Different speakers will require different placement and to some extent different treatment too. It’s an iterative process to get optimal sound and it takes a lot of time and effort to get there.

But there’s absolutely no shortcut by switching out your already transparent DAC. Have someone help you set up a blind test if you’re just slightly unsure whether you hear a difference. Actually, do that blind test when you’re sure too. Don’t underestimate confirmation bias and placebo. Get your priorities right!

 

[Persona Grata]

Yes, if the audio equipment is transparent it will work as "a wire with gain" and not color the original sound. True to the original sound recording. That's what most of us are looking for. It should be well built, to prevent internal and external interferences, and secure a long lifespan.

The Wiim Ultra is pretty good, but there is more to be desired to get it up a notch or two, especially with reduction in noise and artifacts through the HDMI and Optical In. They have improved some of this in software updates, but there is still work to be done.

NOS R2R DAC, tube amps and other kinds of equipment that introduce their version of coloration, secondary harmonic distortion and/or combined with just heightening the gain will sound different, but less accurate to the original sound. If you have paid "many-a-dollar" for a trademark product with coloration your eyes and your brain (psychoacoustic effect) will convince you that this is the real and true hi-fi sound. For me that is untrue. I want my hi-fi equipment to sound as true to the original recording as possible.

 

[Tacty]

I want my hi-fi equipment to sound as true to the original recording as possible.

...and you have to meet people from the recording studio to tell you is it true to the original sound...whatever it is...recording and listening music is a process...people in the studio works with miles of cheap home depot cables and connectors, among other things, which we are trying to "correct" or "improve" with expensive fuses, cables, connectors, ac purifiers and of course external dac, etc...

 

[onlyoneme]

Now before people start screaming about me being deaf, I want you to know that I took a hearing test about six months ago and ended up in the top 18th percentile for my age group (I’m 48), and top 29th percentile overall.

Isn't it for a heard frequency and amplitude only?

 

[Persona Grata]

If you want to fix the recording you'll need a new mixing, mastering or a totally new recording. Trying to correct it afterwards is pretty difficult and involves hard EQ-ing of each individual track. That's not the way to go. It's a myth that you need expensive equipment to get a great recording with good dynamics. Just listen to many of Billie Eilish's albums, more or less made on a Mac by her brother in a bedroom.

 

[Kblade97]

Before I bought the Ultra, I had a Wiim Pro connected to a Topping D30 DAC.

I didn't expect the Ultra onboard DAC to sound equal to the external Topping DAC.

It did, I could not tell the difference between the 2.

I know the Topping D30 was a "budget" option but I was wondering what options would offer a I had a Chord Qutest mk2 using the USB out on the ultra. When I connected the Ultra analog outs to my integrated amp, the Ultra was better.

If you want to fix the recording you'll need a new mixing, mastering or a totally new recording. Trying to correct it afterwards is pretty difficult and involves hard EQ-ing of each individual track. That's not the way to go. It's a myth that you need expensive equipment to get a great recording with good dynamics. Just listen to many of Billie Eilish's albums, more or less made on a Mac by her brother in a bedroom.

I had a Chord Qutest 2 connected to the USB on the Ultra. When I used the analog outputs on the Ultra, the performance was better. You are getting a lot of good advice on here and a synopsis of that advice is, spend your money elsewhere.

 

[DamagedGoods]

Isn't it for a heard frequency and amplitude only?

Not just a single one, there’s several. But sure, it doesn’t cover the entire frequency spectrum I suppose. And in theory I might not hear that specific “unveiling”, “holographic sounding”, “night and day difference” magical frequency that seems to only exist when combining certain DAC’s with golden ears.

 

[dtc]

NOS R2R DAC, tube amps and other kinds of equipment that introduce their version of coloration, secondary harmonic distortion and/or combined with just heightening the gain will sound different, but less accurate to the original sound.

Most DACs today use delta-sigma processing which usually uses oversampling, feedback loops and noise shaping. Typically, NOS R2R DACs do not oversample and the R2R ladder does no processing other than to set set the appropriate voltage for each bit. A good quality NOS R2R produces sound is about as close to the original digital data as you can get. The drawback is that you need very precise resistors that are thermally very stable.

But, you really should listen to what sounds best to you, imo.

 

[adias]

"Faced with the choice between changing one’s mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof."
- John Kenneth Galbraith, Professor of Economics, Harvard University

Watch these videos by audio engineer Alain Paul:
DAC Scam:

The results:

What's very interesting is that after the test 54 % of the comments below the video still disagreed with the results and think they can hear big differences and they disagreed with the premise for the test.

PS. I have used thousands of dollars on different fancy hi-fi equipment over the last few years. This was on the level of being pathological. After many years of this practice and buying and listening to hundreds of different hifi-components I had to admit and change my mind. Today there are so many good sounding budget equipment that audiophile experience can be obtained by most people with an average income.

PPS. For those of us also being part of the op amp scam watch ASR's op amp rolling measurements:

I stopped reading after your quoting John Kenneth Galbraith. Now, if you had instead quoted Milton Friedman...

 

[adias]

I have tried four different external Delta Sigma DAC’s in the range of $100 to $700.

SMSL SU-1
iFi Zen DAC V2
Topping E70 Velvet
Gustard X16

After careful volume matching down to +-0.2 dB (it should preferably be 0.1, but I couldn’t get that close in all cases), I was unable to hear any difference in sound compared to the DAC in my WiiM Ultra when performing AB switching tests.

Before throwing in the towel I decided to try a multibit DAC too, so I ordered a Schiit Modi Multibit 2. Same there, no difference.

A/B switching tests is where the problem lies. I rather recommend listening to a well known piece entirely in one unit and then the other and do that for a few tracks. A/B is misleading. Listen not just to local instantaneous differences but the whole picture - timing, space between instruments, acoustic dimension.

 

[DamagedGoods]

A/B switching tests is where the problem lies. I rather recommend listening to a well known piece entirely in one unit and then the other and do that for a few tracks. A/B is misleading. Listen not just to local instantaneous differences but the whole picture - timing, space between instruments, acoustic dimension.

Listening to long/full pieces and comparing is almost impossible as there are so many factors that can alter your listening experience during that time. Those tests would have to be repeated many times, blindly, to have any statistical significance. And even then, your experience with the same DAC (or whatever gear your’re testing) can be different between rounds.

As an example, If you move or turn your head just a few inches in your listening position it will affect the in-room frequency response and you will hear an actual difference in sound.

 

[adias]

Listening to long/full pieces and comparing is almost impossible as there are so many factors that can alter your listening experience during that time. Those tests would have to be repeated many times, blindly, to have any statistical significance. And even then, your experience with the one and same equipment can be different between rounds.

As an example, If you move just a few inches in your listening position it will affect the in-room frequency response and you will hear an actual difference in sound.

Let's agree to disagree, shall we? I listen to music, not equipment; I know how things sound. Experienced listeners pay no attention to A/B switching. That is me, you do you.

 

[Smartplug]

Many listeners don’t know what to expect to hear because they listen to hundreds if not thousands songs. Now, if you like me who listen on 5 musics everyday for several decades can definitely tell what have changed.

 

[DamagedGoods]

Let's agree to disagree, shall we? I listen to music, not equipment; I know how things sound. Experienced listeners pay no attention to A/B switching. That is me, you do you.

Well, I’ve successfully AB switch tested lots of gear like amplifiers phono stages and turntables. But that is of course things that has a much less subtle impact on sound.

But, even if there’s hypothetically an audible difference between two transparent DAC’s, those differences are still extremely small compared to the other things that I listed.

A typical medium sized untreated living room has an RT60 of around maybe 600-700 ms, depending on furnishings. A dedicated listening room with minimal furniture (the audio equipment and a chair perhaps) would have something like 700-1000 ms decay when not treated. In that case it would be physically impossible to hear a difference between two DAC’s unless they actually alter the frequency response (and then they are not doing what they are supposed to). And even then it would be difficult due to all the resonant distortion in the room.

Speaker and amplification also have hundreds, if not thousands, times higher distortion levels than a DAC.

We can agree to disagree, but these are facts. A DAC should come way down the priority list if you want to focus on what has the biggest impact on sound.

And I too listen to music, not equipment. But the music is played through equipment, equipment that is engineered according to scientific principles and methods, it’s not magic. You can have an excellent musical experience with a cheap, half-assed setup too, but the DAC will still have little impact compared to the rest of the gear and the room.

 

[hgo58]

Well, I’ve successfully AB switch tested lots of gear like amplifiers phono stages and turntables. But that is of course things that has a much less subtle impact on sound.

But, even if there’s hypothetically an audible difference between two transparent DAC’s, those differences are still extremely small compared to the other things that I listed.

A typical medium sized untreated living room has an RT60 of around maybe 600-700 ms, depending on furnishings. A dedicated listening room with minimal furniture (the audio equipment and a chair perhaps) would have something like 700-1000 ms decay when not treated. In that case it would be physically impossible to hear a difference between two DAC’s unless they actually alter the frequency response (and then they are not doing what they are supposed to). And even then it would be difficult due to all the resonant distortion in the room.

Speaker and amplification also have hundreds, if not thousands, times higher distortion levels than a DAC.

We can agree to disagree, but these are facts. A DAC should come way down the priority list if you want to focus on what has the biggest impact on sound.

And I too listen to music, not equipment. But the music is played through equipment, equipment that is engineered according to scientific principles and methods, it’s not magic. You can have an excellent musical experience with a cheap, half-assed setup too, but the DAC will still have little impact compared to the rest of the gear.

The difference is if you listen to your equipment with music or listen to music with your equipment.