Which Active Speakers are well matched ?

[cyclical]

G'day,

Looking at a Wiim Ultra and a pair of active speakers to match. Probably end up running a sub from the Wiim and using the Wiim app & inputs, so not really fussed about those features on the active speakers. Looking at KEF, Edifier, AudioEngine, Klipsh ...... what are people using or planning to use ?

 

[Hammer66]

I’ve used WiiM streamers on Klipsch the Fives and Sevens and they sound great
It will really come down to which speakers you prefer the sound of and not the “sound” of the streamer
And they can all be EQ’d as well

 

[jed1]

I use Kali Audio IN-8 V2 3-way active studio monitors and Kali Audio WS6-2 subwoofers. I use Pro Plus with SMSL DAC via toslink and XLR. Depending on where you live, Kali is a good value choice for US and Focal is alternative to those in Europe - Focal Alpha 80 Evo and Focal Sub One.

 

[harkpabst]

Looking at KEF, Edifier, AudioEngine, Klipsh

That's quite a wild range of makes.

Any particular reason you want actives instead of a power amp and passive speakers? Most "active speakers" in the home Hi-Fi market are not really active speakers but sound systems. They will duplicate large parts (but not everything) of what the WiiM Ultra has to offer. You would have to look rather into active studio equipment (like e.g. Kali) or few "classical" active Hi-Fi speakers to not waste money on duplicate features.

A good quality power amp, a powered sub (using the Ultra's bass management) and a pair of passive speakers could turn out no more expensive but offering more flexibility.

 

[cyclical]

That's quite a wild range of makes.

Any particular reason you want actives instead of a power amp and passive speakers? Most "active speakers" in the home Hi-Fi market are not really active speakers but sound systems. They will duplicate large parts (but not everything) of what the WiiM Ultra has to offer. You would have to look rather into active studio equipment (like e.g. Kali) or few "classical" active Hi-Fi speakers to not waste money on duplicate features.

A good quality power amp, a power sub (using the Ultra's bass management) and a pair of passive speakers could turn out no more expensive but offering more flexibility.

I've not really played with active speakers, so with an Ultra on order, I thought it might make a nice simple system. Yes duplication of features is certainly a factor ........

You could use either an integrated amp or specific power amp right ? any pro's & conns on those two approaches ? I have a few integrated amps that could do the job

 

[VintageFlanker]

Looking at KEF, Edifier, AudioEngine, Klipsh ......

Most of these work with a DSP (non bypassable). As such, their analog input signal will always be converted again to digital through their ADC (and again to analog to feed the drivers). So, SQ wise, you would have no benefit using the analog outputs of the Ultra. Just saying. Modern active/wireless speakers are really intended to be used through their internal digital inputs.

Some other active speakers, such as "pro" monitorings may not have digital inputs, so whether they are DSP powered or not, you would need the analog outputs and volume control of the Ultra anyway.

 

[harkpabst]

You could use either an integrated amp or specific power amp right ? any pro's & conns on those two approaches ? I have a few integrated amps that could do the job

Technically, any integrated amp will do. You might also end up with feature duplication but if you already own the device you didn't waste money, at least. If your integrated amps don't support digital inputs you can be very sure that no internal digitisation and DSP (as mentioned by @VintageFlanker) will be performed. Even if they have digital inputs, the analogue inputs will stay in the analogue domain in most cases (but it might be worth checking).

Stuff like WiiM's EQ or room correction can only be applied to the Ultra's own inputs, of course, not to any of the extra inputs the amp might provide. That's probably trivial. If you want to use WiiM Ultra subwoofer management you must use it's own volume control. Otherwise the relative level between sub out and mains out would constantly go out of match as soon as you change the volume in the amp. You would have to settle for one setting of the amp's volume control, match the subwoofer level in the WiiM Home App and stick with the Ultra's volume control from that point on.

Some users worry about relying on a digital volume control, for various reasons.

One reason is sound quality, since digital volume control is believed to be lossy. Well, it is in theory. In practice pretty much every DAC supports a higher bit depth than the signal it is fed. The WiiM Ultra is no exception here. The DAC supports 32 bit resolution while (I believe) WiiM actively limits input to 24 bit. This leaves so much headroom for volume control that it effectively isn't lossy even down to the lowest levels where your hearing will not able to tell 24 bit music from 10 bit music, anyway. This comparison (24 bit/10 bit) is not based on scientific evidence, I just made up an example to illustrate my point. There are other techniques used in digital volume control chips to increase the effective resolution where it's needed but I don't know if WiiM makes use of that or if. In practice I cannot heare any sonical imperfections in digital volume control with my WiiMs and my Lyngdorf digital amplifier compared to my pure analogue gear.

Another point is the problem that volume control purely done by software is potentially prone to software errors or unexpected software features. An external protocol like e.g. Chromecast, Tidal Connect, Spotify Connect can have control of the volume setting when switching to the related source. Therefore it could happen that the Ultra used as a pre-amp suddenly plays at full level, potentially damaging speakers or human ears. Bugs in the device software could lead to the same behaviour. Some prefer to have an analogue volume control (e.g. a passive potentiometer or an analogue pre-amp using one) inserted between the Ultra's analogue output and the amplifier's input as a safety measure, so they can limit the maximum output, irrespective of software behaviour. This can never improve sound quality, but only degrade it, potentially, but yes, it does add a level of protection if you are concerned. What I said about subwoofer integration holds true here as well.

Personally I've been running the Ultra as a pre-amp for weeks now, currently directly feeding a set of V3 Mono power amps (not F3, sorry, that was a typo) and there has been not a single issue.

 

[dangermouse]

Personally I've been running the Ultra as a pre-amp for weeks now, currently directly feeding a set of F3 Mono power amps and there has been not a single issue.

F3 or V3?

 

[harkpabst]

F3 or V3?

Oopsie, V3 Mono, of course.

Working together quite well. I have set the gain to the lower setting (25 dB instead of 31 dB) to operate the volume control more in the higher ranges. I was surprised to find how hot the V3 Monos get just when idling, so I also enabled auto-on and that works fine with the Ultra.

The entire setup is really a little funny, because the V3 Mono are feeding a pair of mini TQWT speakers, called the Cyburgs Needle. They feature a single Dayton Audio RS100-4 4" full-range driver and are crossed over at 120 Hz to a tiny and cheap 8" Monoprice sub with noticeably less power. Anyway, I had to work with what was already available and the whole setup sounds surprisingly good, even though the power amps are absolute overkill here.

I'd love to remove the passive notch filter in the Needles, since PEQ is applied anyway, but my wife doesn't think it's necessary.

 

[jed1]

Most of these work with a DSP (non bypassable). As such, their analog input signal will always be converted again to digital through their ADC (and again to analog to feed the drivers). So, SQ wise, you would have no benefit using the analog outputs of the Ultra. Just saying. Modern active/wireless speakers are really intended to be used through their internal digital inputs.

Some other active speakers, such as "pro" monitorings may not have digital inputs, so whether they are DSP powered or not, you would need the analog outputs and volume control of the Ultra anyway.

FYI. Focal Alpha Evo does not have DSP according to the product description.

 

[Dako]

Technically, any integrated amp will do. You might also end up with feature duplication but if you already own the device you didn't waste money, at least. If your integrated amps don't support digital inputs you can be very sure that no internal digitisation and DSP (as mentioned by @VintageFlanker) will be performed. Even if they have digital inputs, the analogue inputs will stay in the analogue domain in most cases (but it might be worth checking).

Stuff like WiiM's EQ or room correction can only be applied to the Ultra's own inputs, of course, not to any of the extra inputs the amp might provide. That's probably trivial. If you want to use WiiM Ultra subwoofer management you must use it's own volume control. Otherwise the relative level between sub out and mains out would constantly go out of match as soon as you change the volume in the amp. You would have to settle for one setting of the amp's volume control, match the subwoofer level in the WiiM Home App and stick with the Ultra's volume control from that point on.

Some users worry about relying on a digital volume control, for various reasons.

One reason is sound quality, since digital volume control is believed to be lossy. Well, it is in theory. In practice pretty much every DAC supports a higher bit depth than the signal it is fed. The WiiM Ultra is no exception here. The DAC supports 32 bit resolution while (I believe) WiiM actively limits input to 24 bit. This leaves so much headroom for volume control that it effectively isn't lossy even down to the lowest levels where your hearing will not able to tell 24 bit music from 10 bit music, anyway. This comparison (24 bit/10 bit) is not based on scientific evidence, I just made up an example to illustrate my point. There are other techniques used in digital volume control chips to increase the effective resolution where it's needed but I don't know if WiiM makes use of that or if. In practice I cannot heare any sonical imperfections in digital volume control with my WiiMs and my Lyngdorf digital amplifier compared to my pure analogue gear.

Another point is the problem that volume control purely done by software is potentially prone to software errors or unexpected software features. An external protocol like e.g. Chromecast, Tidal Connect, Spotify Connect can have control of the volume setting when switching to the related source. Therefore it could happen that the Ultra used as a pre-amp suddenly plays at full level, potentially damaging speakers or human ears. Bugs in the device software could lead to the same behaviour. Some prefer to have an analogue volume control (e.g. a passive potentiometer or an analogue pre-amp using one) inserted between the Ultra's analogue output and the amplifier's input as a safety measure, so they can limit the maximum output, irrespective of software behaviour. This can never improve sound quality, but only degrade it, potentially, but yes, it does add a level of protection if you are concerned. What I said about subwoofer integration holds true here as well.

Personally I've been running the Ultra as a pre-amp for weeks now, currently directly feeding a set of V3 Mono power amps (not F3, sorry, that was a typo) and there has been not a single issue.

You can just set volume limit in the Ultra if you’re worried about to much output.

 

[harkpabst]

You can just set volume limit in the Ultra if you’re worried about to much output.

As I said, I am not. But this setting is just as (potentially) prone to software bugs (or changes due to firmware updates) as volume control itself, so it won't keep those calm who do worry.

 

[Dako]

As I said, I am not. But this setting is just as (potentially) prone to software bugs (or changes due to firmware updates) as volume control itself, so it won't keep those calm who do worry.

The probability that a future software update removes the volume limit should be fairly low. It’s a quite basic function that doesn’t needs to improve. It’s different with RC or other more advanced functions that are constantly developed. After I accidentally put full volume from my phone in my pocket on my Lyngdorf 1120, I’ve always volume limit activated.

 

[harkpabst]

The probability that a future software update removes the volume limit should be fairly low. It’s a quite basic function that doesn’t needs to improve. It’s different with RC or other more advanced functions that are constantly developed. After I accidentally put full volume from my phone in my pocket on my Lyngdorf 1120, I’ve always volume limit activated.

It's not a matter of this feature being removed, but rather reset incidentally.

Using the WiiM Home for Windows beta app I once was surprised to see, that I could enable MQA beta for the WiiM Amp, which doesn't even support that feature. I don't care about MQA at all, but out of curiosity I just had to flick that switch (while music was playing).

Big mistake.

Enabling MQA (beta) requires bit perfect output and bit perfect output requires fixed volume. Bamm! That was loud! This setting should not even have been there, but the buggy Windows beta version did expose it. In this particular case, the volume limit might have even helped, but it's just intended as an example how software bugs can unexpectedly change any setting, if you are really unlucky.

Actually, I don't have a volume limit set, neither on my Lyngdorf, nor on my WiiM Amp, nor on my Ultra and except for this one little episode (where my own curiosity killed the cat) I've never been into trouble.

I definitely do not recommend using a passive volume control, introducing a bunch of disadvantages. I'll just keep using the Ultra as a digital pre-amp. After all, the "risk" is the same as with any other digital home entertainment device. I can live with that.

 

[sNc]

It's not a matter of this feature being removed, but rather reset incidentally.

Couldn't be there a software notification if device is reset, or red alert when the settings are automatically changed vs settings set manually by user before?

I have never heard that anyone ever with Lygndofr had such a problem, probably the risk is minimal and there is nothing to fear

 

[harkpabst]

Couldn't be there a software notification if device is reset, or red alert when the settings are automatically changed vs settings set manually by user before?

I have never heard that anyone ever with Lygndofr had such a problem, probably the risk is minimal and there is nothing to fear

As if users were reading notifications ... let alone manuals ...

Don't make me feel like I had to defend the paranoid here. I'm just fine with it the way it is, I don't see an issue. For the sake of completeness I just mentioned what has been named as a downside of connecting a power amp directly.

Wondering how those people deal with their car Hi-Fi ...

 

[vdp]

Well. I understand that the RME-ADI-2 DAC for instance will take few seconds to ramp up volume when you change channel (headphone out to xlr out etc) which gives you time to pull out the headphone jack or reach for the volume knob.

I see several people here asking about safety features.

My feeling could be incorrect but maybe we see here a bit two "camps".

The more experienced audiophiles who are used to do stuff in a certain (safe) way and don't see the value. You might see it as your responsibility as owner of the hifi setup etc. Fair enough.

And then maybe a younger audience for whom it is less acceptable to have to think how things turn on/off. Who are starting in hifi and are not used to the complexity of the hifi chain dependencies vs a sonos like box (high volume could also happen but total wattage with a big amp is higher in most cases). Who expect the user experience and family friendliness experience to be on Sonos like level (ironically what it should be at least ).

It could be a selling point for a solution like WiiM to invest a bit in such features and market it. Their target market for the coming period seems to be the Sonos crowd after all...

 

[VintageFlanker]

FYI. Focal Alpha Evo does not have DSP according to the product description.

Thanks. But I knew that, already.

 

[Ken Lau]

I utilize the WiiM ultra RCA output to connect my two Devialet Phathom II speakers (95db) to their 3.5mm AUX inputs. I set the speaker latency to the minimum of 0.06s and the volume to 95%. It functions flawlessly with all inputs, ensuring synchronized sound for movies and offering a very linear volume control using my LG TV remote across all input sources, which is incredibly convenient.

This device has transformed my Devialet speakers into a home theater system with impressive bass quality. I am thoroughly enjoying the experience!

 

[jmudrick]

I use Kali Audio IN-8 V2 3-way active studio monitors and Kali Audio WS6-2 subwoofers. I use Pro Plus with SMSL DAC via toslink and XLR. Depending on where you live, Kali is a good value choice for US and Focal is alternative to those in Europe - Focal Alpha 80 Evo and Focal Sub One.

Though not connected to my WiiM I also have Kalis (LP-6) and give them very high marks, especially from a value perspective . As studio monitors best in a smaller room but still capable at moderate volume in a larger one, especially with subs.