Wiim Amp-poor sound from subwoofer via RCA

[harkpabst]

It's set to 160hz on the sub and 80 on the wiim, perhaps they should match?

No, absolutely not. To get a smooth transition from the WiiM's lowpass (for sub) and highpass (for mains) you want to make sure that the subwoofer's lowpass filter is fully out of the way. @Wiimer got it straight.

traditionally for music, we invite rel users to use connect to loudspeakers mode... perhaps just go back to this approach and the more classic internal adjustment modes of the rel and see if it doesn't just match that way...

Isn't it smarter to verify if the WiiM Amp is working correctly in the first place, rather than looking for a (lesser) workaround?

1. the output level position at which my REL works perfectly in combination with the Pioneer NC-50 is around 30% of full subwoofer capability.

Don't think of the subwoofer's gain knobs indicating its capability. This is all about optimizing the overall gain structure. What works well with one amp might not be perfect for a different amp. Usually (with high quality subwoofer outputs), best results are obtained with subwoofer level set somewhat roughly around 50% and then finetuning the level in the output settings. In your case this doesn't seem to make a difference, since you've played around with all possible volume settings.

The .1 / LFE input and the associated level knob should be used, ideally.

Did you try to adjust the crossover frequency between 30 Hz and 250 Hz? Even (or rather especially) with no subwoofer connected, thish should make a tremendous difference to the sound of your main speakers. If it does not, then somehow your amp does not respond to the app's settings.

As you already found out, there is no general problem with the WiiM Amp subwoofer output. Also, there is nothing special about your sub that would make it somehow incompatible with the WiiM Amp. If all connections are good and all settings are as advised, there might be a technical problem.

 

[wiimamp user]

I performed the power cycle several times, with no effect.

Maybe...do a reset...
Setting back the amp to factory settings and go from there..

And as @harkpabst said..try adjusting the cross over frequency..


Where is you're phase being set to? 0 or 180?
What is the phase being set on the app?
Because they may conflicting with eachother.

 

[spacegrass]

Thank you all for your interest in my problem. First of all, I wanted to know if anyone else may have had a similar problem. As you can see, other users have no problem with the subwoofer playing properly with the Wiim Amp.
Therefore, I have decided that I will return my copy.

If @scoffer hasn’t already boxed up the Wiim Amp, I note that the REL Tzero has a “standby/always on” power switch like many subs. I don’t know if this might apply to the REL, but I have read about various other subs that, when in “standby” don’t kick in until the volume on the amp is relatively high, i.e. I guess a certain trigger voltage is needed? If the REL has been used on “standby” only, “always on” might be worth a try. And if “always on” makes a difference, the difference in apparent performance between the Wiim Amp and the Pioneer might some kind of difference in the signal level to the sub from the respective amps? (I have no knowledge about signal levels so just making sh*t up at this point)

 

[scoffer]

If @scoffer hasn’t already boxed up the Wiim Amp, I note that the REL Tzero has a “standby/always on” power switch like many subs. I don’t know if this might apply to the REL, but I have read about various other subs that, when in “standby” don’t kick in until the volume on the amp is relatively high, i.e. I guess a certain trigger voltage is needed? If the REL has been used on “standby” only, “always on” might be worth a try. And if “always on” makes a difference, the difference in apparent performance between the Wiim Amp and the Pioneer might some kind of difference in the signal level to the sub from the respective amps? (I have no knowledge about signal levels so just making sh*t up at this point)

Thank you for this hint, but I also tried it. I play both on stand by and alwayes on- there was no difference.
By the way, I noticed that my REL wakes up immediately, hence on the Pioneer I keep the subwoofer on stand by.

Wiim Amp sent back. I'm waiting for delivery of new copies.
In the meantime, I'm using the Wiim Mini as a streamer for the Pioneer because of the super responsive Wiim Home app (compared to the Pioneer app) and the great convenience of using the Wiim remote with presets.

 

[Steve Woodhouse]

I’m with wiimampuser, check your phase settings.

 

[wiimamp user]

I’m with wiimampuser, check your phase settings.

The app could be on 0 where the Sub_ for instance_ would set to 180..
That could be the problem..the different settings conflicting with eachother.

 

[spacegrass]

The other thing that interests me in @scoffer’s experience is not that he didn’t hear much bass from the REL with Wiim Amp – it is that he did hear a lot of bass from the REL with the Pioneer. I say that because I would not expect the small REL Tzero to being able to add much to his high quality KEF R3s, which have 6.5” bass drivers and virtually identical bass extension measurements as the REL Tzero.

When I used the similarly sized and priced Cambridge Audio Minx X201 mini-subwoofer for a few weeks (before I had the Wiim Amp, but tried with 2 different older amps in a small room) it produced no meaningful bass addition to my Mission bookshelf speakers – despite trying all possible positions/set-ups/settings. It wasn’t defective – it just did not produce much bass.

In Erin’s Audio Corner review of the REL Tzero Mk iii, he doesn’t give it a bad review based on its measurements, but the fact that he uses air quotes when he refers to it as a “subwoofer” is the same point - he elaborates that it is really more a mid-bass driver than a sub.

So, I am wondering what Scoffer’s experience was listening to the KEF R3s without the REL sub, and connected to the Pioneer versus the Wiim Amp? Was the sound a lot different between the Wiim and the Pioneer?

 

[steadyshot]

The other thing that interests me in @scoffer’s experience is not that he didn’t hear much bass from the REL with Wiim Amp – it is that he did hear a lot of bass from the REL with the Pioneer. I say that because I would not expect the small REL Tzero to being able to add much to his high quality KEF R3s, which have 6.5” bass drivers and virtually identical bass extension measurements as the REL Tzero.

When I used the similarly sized and priced Cambridge Audio Minx X201 mini-subwoofer for a few weeks (before I had the Wiim Amp, but tried with 2 different older amps in a small room) it produced no meaningful bass addition to my Mission bookshelf speakers – despite trying all possible positions/set-ups/settings. It wasn’t defective – it just did not produce much bass.

In Erin’s Audio Corner review of the REL Tzero Mk iii, he doesn’t give it a bad review based on its measurements, but the fact that he uses air quotes when he refers to it as a “subwoofer” is the same point - he elaborates that it is really more a mid-bass driver than a sub.

So, I am wondering what Scoffer’s experience was listening to the KEF R3s without the REL sub, and connected to the Pioneer versus the Wiim Amp? Was the sound a lot different between the Wiim and the Pioneer?

It is not only bass extension, it is more about bass SPL levels . The way this small Rel works is by augmenting the sound pressure of the second and third octave by using the low pass filter and working in tandem with the speakers to achieve that . Remember that if you listen at 75db at 1khz , 40 hz should be in the range of 90-100db SPL to perceive equal loudness of frequencies in the music .Kef r3s should not be high passed with this sub . Only low pass filter should be applied

 

[scoffer]

The app could be on 0 where the Sub_ for instance_ would set to 180..
That could be the problem..the different settings conflicting with eachother.

Thanks for that hint, but I had the phase sat at zero on both the subwoofer and the wiim home app.

 

[harkpabst]

The app could be on 0 where the Sub_ for instance_ would set to 180..
That could be the problem..the different settings conflicting with eachother.

Those settings don't need to be in synch. Setting it to 0⁰ on the sub and to 180⁰ in the app (or vice versa) could be a completely valid option, depending on circumstances. Setting both to 180⁰ is the same as setting both to 0⁰, no difference.

It is not only bass extension, it is more about bass SPL levels . The way this small Rel works is by augmenting the sound pressure of the second and third octave by using the low pass filter and working in tandem with the speakers to achieve that . Remember that if you listen at 75db at 1khz , 40 hz should be in the range of 90-100db SPL to perceive equal loudness of frequencies in the music .Kef r3s should not be high passed with this sub . Only low pass filter should be applied

Using a sub for wannabe Fletcher Munson correction sounds plain wrong to me.

This cannot be done with the WiiM Amp anyway (luckily).

 

[scoffer]

The other thing that interests me in @scoffer’s experience is not that he didn’t hear much bass from the REL with Wiim Amp – it is that he did hear a lot of bass from the REL with the Pioneer. I say that because I would not expect the small REL Tzero to being able to add much to his high quality KEF R3s, which have 6.5” bass drivers and virtually identical bass extension measurements as the REL Tzero.

When I used the similarly sized and priced Cambridge Audio Minx X201 mini-subwoofer for a few weeks (before I had the Wiim Amp, but tried with 2 different older amps in a small room) it produced no meaningful bass addition to my Mission bookshelf speakers – despite trying all possible positions/set-ups/settings. It wasn’t defective – it just did not produce much bass.

In Erin’s Audio Corner review of the REL Tzero Mk iii, he doesn’t give it a bad review based on its measurements, but the fact that he uses air quotes when he refers to it as a “subwoofer” is the same point - he elaborates that it is really more a mid-bass driver than a sub.

So, I am wondering what Scoffer’s experience was listening to the KEF R3s without the REL sub, and connected to the Pioneer versus the Wiim Amp? Was the sound a lot different between the Wiim and the Pioneer?

The first explanation, which may be obvious, but I prefer to mention it: on both the Wiim Amp and the Pioneer I played without any equalization.

Under this assumption, the Kef R3s played without a subwoofer had the same level of bass with both the Pioneer and Wiim amps.
On the other hand, connecting a subwoofer to the Pioneer clearly increased both the amount and the quality of the bass.
In addition, the 3D stage was widened and filled with more space. Again, this is clearly noticeable, as turning off the subwoofer makes the track flat and "dry".

In the context of playing the Kef R3 with me, it's also worth mentioning that I listen to music at a fairly low volume (65dB max), secondly the Pioneer amplifier is 50W/ch and has a SABRE32 Ultra DAC (ES9016).

I'm not a basshead, but with all the advantages of the Kef R3, I lacked bass from the beginning (without going into details of which band).
And I'm not alone in this opinion, because my wife, having gone to music school and with a much better musical ear, also noticed a significant improvement in listening to the Kef R3 with a subwoofer.
Hence the decision to buy a subwoofer.

 

[steadyshot]

Using a sub for wannabe Fletcher Munson correction sound plain wrong to me.

What do you mean? Subs reason of existence is to make audible and loud enough(and undistorted) frequencies that are not reproduced loud enough from the speakers . On top of this , tzero is not big or powerful enough to fill 40-80 hz with enough volume especially if the listening distance is more than 6ft . It can only do that with the help of the main speakers .Let alone the first octave … He would need two subs (not tzero) at least for proper reproduction of lower frequencies and for having the best chances to combat room modes with eq and adjusting a proper downward target curve

 

[canard]

this is rather false because, and I'm talking about music, in particular acoustic, and no effects, the necessary levels are rather low or very low under 50hz for example..
subs , not big,under 45hz can still be very positive..but very little requested...
no need to think "a 0db to 90db at 1m" full band...
;-)
(I'm not saying that a "bigger" one won't be more comfortable, but just point out that the needs are low, even if very power hungry)

 

[harkpabst]

Remember that if you listen at 75db at 1khz , 40 hz should be in the range of 90-100db SPL to perceive equal loudness of frequencies in the music .

This would be Fletcher Munson compensation.

If the original sound event was 75 dB at 1 kHz and 75 dB at 40 Hz, then exact this should be reproduced, nothing more, nothing less.

A sub is not intended to equalize "perceived loudness". This is what EQ is for. A sub always lifting the lows by 15 dB is not Hifi, but LoFi (even if some will always prefer more bass, just because more bass is more bass).

In stereo reproduction a sub (or more than one) is intended to either extend the frequency response of the main speakers or to relieve the main speakers and amplifier from some load or a combination of both. In some cases there might be advantages in lowering room influence (in particular when using more than one sub). That's pretty much it.

I hope I was clear enough this time.

 

[Steve Woodhouse]

Thanks for that hint, but I had the phase sat at zero on both the subwoofer and the wiim home app.

I would always try one at 0° and the other at 180° in an instance such as this.

Not least because it takes 2 seconds on your phone.

 

[scoffer]

hello, time to update.
A new copy of the Wiim Amp arrived, uploaded the latest software, I did the settings as the Wiimer user has (
https://forum.wiimhome.com/threads/wiim-amp-poor-sound-from-subwoofer-via-rca.3087/post-43706) and ...nothing changed.
In my opinion, Wiim should make the option to manage the subwoofer from within the app as an option, while by default Wiim Amp should automatically recognize the connected subwoofer.
If I could find a way to software enable the subwoofer jack to act as a "pass through," then I would become independent of the Wiim Amp Home app and its influence on subwoofer performance.
If I can't find another method, I give up and return the Wiim Amp-I'll play the Wiim Mini and my Pioneer, on which I simply plug in the cable and the subwoofer plays.

 

[harkpabst]

If I could find a way to software enable the subwoofer jack to act as a "pass through," then I would become independent of the Wiim Amp Home app and its influence on subwoofer performance.

If - for whatever reasons - something in your setup prevents the use of the proper subwoofer output, then you could still be using the REL's high-level input and get the exact behaviour you're asking for.

What's keeping you from going this route?

 

[scoffer]

If - for whatever reasons - something in your setup prevents the use of the proper subwoofer output, then you could still be using the REL's high-level input and get the exact behaviour you're asking for.

What's keeping you from going this route?

Well, the high level input works similarly poorly on the wiim amp as the rca. Since the RCA on the Pioneer works very well, hence I insisted that on the wiim amp it should also play.
ps. the subwoofer is fine, as I checked at the music store.

 

[harkpabst]

That plain makes no sense. I don't say you're not experiencing what you are. I just say there must be something very wrong with how this is all set up. If there is any sound from passive speakers connected to the WiiM Amp then the same signal will be fed to the sub's high level inputs.

 

[scoffer]

That plain makes no sense. I don't say you're not experiencing what you are. I just say there must be something very wrong with how this is all set up. If there is any sound from passive speakers connected to the WiiM Amp then the same signal will be fed to the sub's high level inputs.

More strangely, according to the REL manual, when connecting the high level input to class "D" amplifiers, the black wire should not be connected. In my case, the subwoofer then produces a continuous, deafening rumbling sound. Only when I connect the black wire to the minus, the rumbling stops, but the bass is weak. Compared to the same settings (level, crossover), the bass on RCA is at least 5 times more noticeable.