WiiM Amp Ultra with external DAC?

[Burnside]

If I recall, it was in a thread with lots of measurements and graphs, and I don’t think it was a frequent poster who did them…

I’ll search high and low too

 

[Mr Ee]

If I recall, it was in a thread with lots of measurements and graphs, and I don’t think it was a frequent poster who did them…

I’ll search high and low too

Yep, and I don't think it was the Ultra Noise Shaping thread, which I did find and discounted as the one I was really looking for.

 

[Burnside]

If you search for ADC and 24/96, there are a few comments saying 24/192 measured poorly in comparison and that 24/96 is to be preferred, but I’m still struggling to find the actual post…

 

[Mr Ee]

I did find some posts about the pro plus and ADC with poor 16 bit conversion, but also note that the issues were addressed with firmware updates.
e.g.

O

Post in thread 'My WiiM Pro Plus (+) tests'

Jul 31, 2023

Part 6 - ADC performance:

Analog in - digital out:

ADI-2 will generate a reference analog signal and E1DA Cosmos ADC will work as the reference ADC.
Due to the features of the RME DAC, audio chain for testing the Pro Plus ADC can be quite simple :
REW (PC USB out) > ADI-2 USB in > ADI-2 analog out > Pro Plus analog in > Pro Plus toslink out > ADI-2 toslink in > ADI-2 USB out > REW (PC USB in)

Resolution of the ADC is controlled by the relevant digital output settings of the Pro Plus. The maximum allowed resolution of 192 kHz / 24 bit will be used. For all the...

• onlyoneme

• 

Still, 192 is overkill, and why not choose 24 over 16.
Ipso facto 24 / 96 is best

 

[DazST]

Thanks for your efforts. I played around with bit rates over the weekend (analog, optical and usb inputs) but can't say that I could detect any audible differences in terms of sound quality. If the source was 16/44.1 (cd or flac file) would you expect any audible difference setting the maximum to 24/96?

 

[Mr Ee]

Thanks for your efforts. I played around with bit rates over the weekend (analog, optical and usb inputs) but can't say that I could detect any audible differences in terms of sound quality. If the source was 16/44.1 (cd or flac file) would you expect any audible difference setting the maximum to 24/96?

There have been a few people here who have reported / asked about poor sound when using the analog input and iirc these were all when the ADC was set to 16 / 44.1
It sort of seems logical to choose that when the source is from a CD player, but as mentioned above the fact that it was CD is completely unrelated / irrelevant to choosing ADC settings - you should choose the settings that work best in that particular device's ADC.
And it might be that all settings work equally well, or equally enough to not be noticable.
Given that there's no downside to choosing 24 bits, that there have been reports of issues at 44.1, and that 192 has been shown to be slightly noisier than 96 (there is a graph somewhere!, but is it enough to cause any noticable change?) then choose one and then forget about it.

As for the optical and usb settings you mention, these would be the max outputs.
Unless you external dac has an upper limit (e.g. some only support optica or usb up to 96khz) then I'd say set them to the highest values.
This means the wiim won't resample anything before sending it out to the dac.
Unless you chose the Fixed Resolution option?
Even then, will you hear a difference? Doesn't really matter what theory or anyone else has to say about it, I think you already have your answer on that.

 

[richbutler1]

Hey! Is it possible to connect an external DAC with WiiM Amp Ultra. Does it make any sense? I'm asking because I'm tempted to try DAC R2R from FiiO - K11 or K13. I wonder if there is any option to combine this? Or is it necessary to switch to WiiM Ultra and a separate amp, e.g. Vibelink?

Fyi, I just did this and can confirm it is possible. As others have stated, you will minimally need another amp/receiver to take input from the dac. I did this to also see if there was a noticeable difference between the Fiio K13 R2R dac and the Wiim Amp Ultras. I had a Denon 4308ci I snagged for $50 when I got a bundled with a 400 cd changer. It is key that your receiver/amp has a 'direct' or 'pure direct' input and mode or you'll just reprocess the K13 with the other amps internal dac. In my case there was an external in rca pair that bypasses ADC/DAC and selected pure direct. Keep in mind that many cheaper and older amps may not have this or it doesn't fully bypass. Really look into this for your target receiver/amp or getting the K13 external dacs flavor untouched won't happen.

Here is my connection matrix:
WAU acts as input hub for phono line in to rca in, cd changer to optical in, streaming via wifi to spotify connect lossless

I have an A/B amp or speaker switch by Douk with VU meters to change from amp A-WAU, to amp B- Denon. I like the visual appeal and the ability to go back and forth to compare the WAU vs. K13 dac.

DAC connection - WAU USB out to K13 R2R USB In. In this way, all sources on the WAU can flow out the usb preprocessing, except maybe the phono in which is analog. That may show some new flavor direct into the K13 by manually swapping from WAU.

K13 Routing
Ensure the K13 rca out goes to amp B rca in that is able to bypass amp B preamp and internal dac. Sometimes this is a special input and/or you have to enable direct/pure direct to avoid processing the external dac output. You must check for your specific receiver/amp.
Change WAU Audio Output to usb out
Changing Source on WAU - Simply change the WAU's Audio input to either wifi, optical or line input
Ensure the K13 input is set to usb in
Sample what the K13 R2R can do...

WAU Routing
Since all of your sources are connected directly to the WAU, it is acting as a hub to them already. Just change Audio Output to 'Speakers' instead of usb

Speaker A/B Switch
This is where the a/b soeaker switch comes into play. Assuming you do want one set of speakers and to toggle between WAU direct and Amp B and external DAC, you'll need a switch or you'll need to manually swap speaker cables from WAU to amp b. You simply take the L/R speaker out from each amp and route to Amp A, Amp B on the switch, then speakers out to the front /L/R.

What about a Subwoofer???
I was concerned I'd lose sub capability. I do have WAU sub out to a powered sub. When I use WAU native to speakers, works normally. When I change to WAU USB Out to K13 R2R DAC, I setup Amp B to think it has a sub and a crossover frequency same 80hz as WAU setting. So the DACs rca into Amp B only sends above 80hz to L/R speakers in 'direct' mode which limits pre processing but allows bass management. A trade off. If you set pure direct on amp B, you will send full frequency signal to L/R, no sub out but signal is untouched from the DAC. Meanwhile, the WAU is still sending from its sub out to the LFE on the subwoofer aligned to the 80hz crossover frequency.

Why the hell did I do this?
I like to tinker as a budget audiophile. This setup allows me to do A/B comparative listening. Try an external DAC, but still enjoy the all in one aspect to the WAU. No cable swapping needed.

Not sure if this was what you're looking for,but it covers a lot of your questions I think. Hope this helps you and others.

Bonus:
Fiio K13 R2R DAC w/Denon 4308ci in Direct mode via Ext In(bypasses internal dac and processing, I think)...sound evaluation 1 day in...My feeling is it has a fuller soundstage and has a warmer feeling to it. More dimensional while remaining clear, not veiled. Greater fullness at lower listening levels. Not earth shaking differences but noticeable and more pleasing to me. This will take more time and A/B testing. All that considered, the WAU as all in one using internal DAC and amp is no slouch. I love it's clarity and simplicity. The amplifier nicely drives my 4ohm KEF Q1 meta bookshelf speakers, which need a beefy amp. I also love these KEFs. I got a deal on an older 10" sub by James from 2004. In my condo setting, the WAU, KEFs and sub all pair really well. Good luck!

 

[Goodnews]

This is not possible with any integrated streaming amplifier that I have ever seen. Your only option is use USB out from the Amp Ultra to the FiiO DAC and then attach the DAC's output to another amplifier, or, as you suggested, switch to a different streamer that has no amplifier built in.

-Ed

This raises the question of
is RoomFit still usable and does the USB Port (OUTPUT? ) transmit this, except for the Sub Outpt
The streamer part of the Wiim Amp Ultra can be pretty good...

 

[richbutler1]

This raises the question of
is RoomFit still usable and does the USB Port (OUTPUT? ) transmit this, except for the Sub Outpt
The streamer part of the Wiim Amp Ultra can be pretty good...

My understanding is the usb out is full, unprocessed bitstream, no room fit, no sub settings. When you do an external dac you want zero processing anyway. That's why I did an A/B setup with a speaker switch. A gets me the WAU with all the bells, B is pure external dac. On second amp you can use direct and let it only process bass management or pure direct and main L/R get full frequency range. Whoever does this has to check if amp B can do these modes

 

[Goodnews]

My understanding is the usb out is full, unprocessed bitstream, no room fit, no sub settings.

If that's true, the Wiim Amp Ultra is sufficient for me as a streamer. I bought it two months ago for €420, connected an external DAC, and now use IK Multimedia for DSP.

 

[slartibartfast]

My understanding is the usb out is full, unprocessed bitstream, no room fit, no sub settings. When you do an external dac you want zero processing anyway. That's why I did an A/B setup with a speaker switch. A gets me the WAU with all the bells, B is pure external dac. On second amp you can use direct and let it only process bass management or pure direct and main L/R get full frequency range. Whoever does this has to check if amp B can do these modes

Why do you think the USB output doesn't include RoomFit?

 

[richbutler1]

Why do you think the USB output doesn't include RoomFit?

Using USB Output on WiiM Amp, WiiM Amp Pro, WiiM Amp Ultra, and WiiM Ultra

The WiiM Amp, WiiM Amp Pro, WiiM Amp Ultra, and WiiM Ultra feature a USB output for high-resolution audio playback. This tutorial will guide you through the steps to use the USB output on these devices. Benefits of USB Output Enhanced Dig...

faq.wiimhome.com

For Wiim Ultra, but assume applies to WAU: https://www.blog.wiimhome.com/post/benefits-of-adding-usb-output-mode-to-wiim-amp-wiim-ultra

To ensure bitstream perfect output, do the following:

• Disable Room Correction.
• Disable all EQ settings.
• Set the volume to a fixed 100% output.

Edit: When you do all of this you really get the real feel of the Fiio K13 R2R DAC. You'll probably be able to feel the warmth, soundstage changes, etc. I'm glad I tried this experiment. I'm just getting back into hifi(budget path) and have an engineering background. I don't have broad exposure to a bunch of external dacs or high end $1000+++ speakers. But my ears are telling me this is special for $300. I feel more dimensionality. Here's my listening challenge: Buy it and try it, returnable in 30 days. Play your personal comparison songs you know well, but also try 'Birds' by Dominque Fils Aime from a Lossless source like Spotify/Amazon/FLAC file. Do an A/B test. You will need a capable, decent receiver/amp that allows pure direct from an input. Wire it like above from the Wiim. If you don't hear her voice float more warmly, holographically in space with the K13 vs. WAU native, return it. Also, compare the hand claps locality and the chorus singers prescence and breadth. If the K13 doesn't move you, the R2R sound isn't your thing. We all have different styles we like. The R2R is more emotionally engaging to me and warmer for longer listinening sessions. I'm only trying to share my personal opinion, not overhype it. Only you can tell if it's worth it.

 

[slartibartfast]

Using USB Output on WiiM Amp, WiiM Amp Pro, WiiM Amp Ultra, and WiiM Ultra

The WiiM Amp, WiiM Amp Pro, WiiM Amp Ultra, and WiiM Ultra feature a USB output for high-resolution audio playback. This tutorial will guide you through the steps to use the USB output on these devices. Benefits of USB Output Enhanced Dig...

faq.wiimhome.com

For Wiim Ultra, but assume applies to WAU: https://www.blog.wiimhome.com/post/benefits-of-adding-usb-output-mode-to-wiim-amp-wiim-ultra

To ensure bitstream perfect output, do the following:

• Disable Room Correction.
• Disable all EQ settings.
• Set the volume to a fixed 100% output.

OK so you can disable Room Correction but it isn't compulsory.

 

[hgo58]

If that's true, the Wiim Amp Ultra is sufficient for me as a streamer. I bought it two months ago for €420, connected an external DAC, and now use IK Multimedia for DSP.

That seems to be a waste of money. You could just as well use a WiiM Pro for your use case.

 

[Goodnews]

That seems to be a waste of money. You could just as well use a WiiM Pro for your use case.

If you mean mine!

The reason I got into the Wiim system was because I wanted to reduce the number of devices and move away from using my computer as a source.

I didn't have the problems I'm having now before, including IK Multimedia software/Audirvana Studio.

I assumed that the Wiim Pro would be sufficient for this.

Phew

It seems that the Wiim concept is aimed at a completely different target group.

 

[richbutler1]

I like the fact that by getting the WAU, I get a true all in one. If I want to later move it to another room altogether, I can do it, no other components required. Since I had another receiver, I could try the external dac route and an A/B setup with only a ext. dac, speaker/amp switch and some cables. To each their own. You don't need or want that, but others might. At least there are options. The USB out is a great feature allowing for experimentation. Good luck to the OP finding something that works for them

Here's other test tracks: Draw Your Swords - Angus & Julia Stone, Trouble's What You're In - Fink (Live), Limit To Your Love - James Blake, I'm On Fire - Bruce keying in on his voice's fullness/depth, realness of left channel drum rim taps; then the standards like Norah Jones, Phil - In the air tonight, , Dave Brubeck Quartet, the Sax is full, yet not as piercing at the top end like on the WAU dac, etc. See if it's hype or not.

 

[harkpabst]

To ensure bitstream perfect output, do the following:

• Disable Room Correction.
• Disable all EQ settings.
• Set the volume to a fixed 100% output.

Just to be perfectly clear on this:

If RoomFit is enabled, it will be applied to the USB output as well.
If additional GEQ or PEQ settings are enabled, they will be applied to the USB output as well.
If the subwoofer output (for devices sporting one) is enabled, the resulting high pass filtering is applied ot the USB output as well.

RoomFit and EQ settings are always ever applied based on the frequencies they operate on. If that frequency is below the subwoofer crossover frequency, the correction will be applied to the subwoofer (unless you explicitly decided to not include the subwoofer into the RoomFit correction).

 

[richbutler1]

Now having a full day of listening to the K13 R2R, it is a significant improvement over the WAU's dac to me. So much so that I'm back to the point of deciding to return the WAU and get the WU as the best all in one streamer/hub (to me). The Bluesound NODE and iFi don't have all the inputs(toslink, line in for phono, hdmi arc, and streamer that I want to simply manage via the wiim app. The phono in will get processed by the ADC, but I can live with that. I stream and play cds more than vinyl. The Denon I have does a good job and has direct and pure direct, so good for now. Listening party with A/B comparison has my girlfriend saying, hands down K13 is a significant improvement and warmer, fuller, more lifelike, etc. I definitely think the K13 is worth a try if you have or want separates. Note: the Wiim Ultra, WAmpPro, WAmp are the only model with a usb out for an external dac other than the WAU

 

[Goodnews]

Edit

 

[d00]

Now having a full day of listening to the K13 R2R, it is a significant improvement over the WAU's dac to me. So much so that I'm back to the point of deciding to return the WAU and get the WU as the best all in one streamer/hub (to me). The Bluesound NODE and iFi don't have all the inputs(toslink, line in for phono, hdmi arc, and streamer that I want to simply manage via the wiim app. The phono in will get processed by the ADC, but I can live with that. I stream and play cds more than vinyl. The Denon I have does a good job and has direct and pure direct, so good for now. Listening party with A/B comparison has my girlfriend saying, hands down K13 is a significant improvement and warmer, fuller, more lifelike, etc. I definitely think the K13 is worth a try if you have or want separates. Note: the Wiim Ultra, WAmpPro, WAmp are the only model with a usb out for an external dac other than the WAU

Hmm, after some time I decided to stay with WAU’s DAC. It doesn’t play bad. It’s really awesome. Apparently, even a super super hi-end DAC is not able to radically change the sound. It should be flat. R2R sounds slightly different due to distortion. I prefer clear sound to artificial distortion.