WiiM Uploading Data Daily

[takeatrip]

Can staff provide insight into what Wiim collects and uploads? I can see in the last 72 hours of very light usage, it has uploaded ~25mbs of data on my Wiim Pro Plus.

I can see that it pings Amazon Firehose 5-10 times per minute, Firehose is a data collection service. After blocking Firehose destinations, I observed the device attempting to access external DNS servers approximately every minute, between each burst of requests.

I see another thread about this where the staff doesn't provide a sufficient explanation. "We do not collect or store any personal data from our users." If this is the case, then what is the data that was uploaded and why is firehose being pinged 10 times a minute?

https://imgur.com/a/CrOICwd

 

[whereyoubeen]

I noticed the same by coincidence when checking out my network. I never found an actual explanation for the excessive pings to all kinds of servers. My audio pro speakers behave the same

 

[takeatrip]

I guess it's too much to expect transparency from iot companies. I think I've read every thread on the forum related to privacy and security and haven't seen any non corporate speak, clarifying answers.

The only explanation of uploaded data I've seen them post is "The devices leverage the robust Amazon AWS IoT server that provides the Over-The-Air updates. There are small communication packets that keep the IoT connection between your device and server."

However the fact that it's uploading ~200MB/month makes that response seem fishy.

"You are not required to create an account with us using your personal information. We do not collect or store any personal data from our users."

This also doesn't make sense to me, unknown data leaving my home network feels "personal", who knows how they define that word.

 

[RyanWithWiiM]

Hey guys, I checked in with the team for you.

What you're seeing is primarily related to maintaining the device's functionality. IoT Connectivity uses Amazon AWS IoT services to ensure seamless Over-The-Air (OTA) updates and maintain a stable connection. This involves small communication packets being exchanged regularly. That can add up quickly depending on frequency. There are also regular DNS requests as part of the device's routine checks to ensure connectivity and functionality.

When streaming music from services like Amazon Music or Spotify, we're also required to send certain usage metrics as specified by their SDKs. This is similar to how data is reported when you use these services through their native apps.

 

[CliffyBC]

Hey guys, I checked in with the team for you.

What you're seeing is primarily related to maintaining the device's functionality. IoT Connectivity uses Amazon AWS IoT services to ensure seamless Over-The-Air (OTA) updates and maintain a stable connection. This involves small communication packets being exchanged regularly. That can add up quickly depending on frequency. There are also regular DNS requests as part of the device's routine checks to ensure connectivity and functionality.

When streaming music from services like Amazon Music or Spotify, we're also required to send certain usage metrics as specified by their SDKs. This is similar to how data is reported when you use these services through their native apps.

Just to clarify something in your reply, as I use Youtube Music which I cast from my android phone to my Ultra, and don't use any radio stations, the only point of having an Internet connection to the Ultra is so Wiim can push out updates?
Is that correct?
I have the Ultra blocked in my router from any Internet connectivity and it works fine for me.

 

[Burnside]

Just to clarify something in your reply, as I use Youtube Music which I cast from my android phone to my Ultra, and don't use any radio stations, the only point of having an Internet connection to the Ultra is so Wiim can push out updates?
Is that correct?
I have the Ultra blocked in my router from any Internet connectivity and it works fine for me.

Are you just using Bluetooth then to play to your Ultra as I understood Chromecast to be a cloud delivered service?

 

[CliffyBC]

Are you just using Bluetooth then to play to your Ultra as I understood Chromecast to be a cloud delivered service?

You are spot on, I do Bluetooth to my Ultra, I used the the term cast which is incorrect, sorry. I know Bluetooth isn't the best quality but most of what I listen to is on my plex server or a 1tb ssd attached to the USB port. I only use YT music if there is something I want to listen to which I don't have on plex or my ssd.
I like to see what effect all these firmware updates have before I install them so I block Internet access to the Ultra so Wiim can't foist any update which may break the functionality of the device.
I like to monitor the Wiim forum for problems before I update. Too many years working in IT with dodgy Windows updates I guess.

 

[hoohoohoo]

Hey guys, I checked in with the team for you.

What you're seeing is primarily related to maintaining the device's functionality. IoT Connectivity uses Amazon AWS IoT services to ensure seamless Over-The-Air (OTA) updates and maintain a stable connection. This involves small communication packets being exchanged regularly. That can add up quickly depending on frequency. There are also regular DNS requests as part of the device's routine checks to ensure connectivity and functionality.

When streaming music from services like Amazon Music or Spotify, we're also required to send certain usage metrics as specified by their SDKs. This is similar to how data is reported when you use these services through their native apps.

Thanks @RyanWithWiiM - it's good to have a clear and transparent statement like this. There was another thread similar to this last year which led to a bunch of informed speculation.

 

[Burnside]

Thanks @RyanWithWiiM - it's good to have a clear and transparent statement like this. There was another thread similar to this last year which led to a bunch of informed speculation.

Do you mean ill-informed speculation?

 

[hoohoohoo]

Do you mean ill-informed speculation?

Well, there were some Wireshark captures

 

[Burnside]

Well, there were some Wireshark captures

I probably glazed over trying to read them

 

[Pragmatist]

 

[takeatrip]

Hey guys, I checked in with the team for you.

What you're seeing is primarily related to maintaining the device's functionality. IoT Connectivity uses Amazon AWS IoT services to ensure seamless Over-The-Air (OTA) updates and maintain a stable connection. This involves small communication packets being exchanged regularly. That can add up quickly depending on frequency. There are also regular DNS requests as part of the device's routine checks to ensure connectivity and functionality.

When streaming music from services like Amazon Music or Spotify, we're also required to send certain usage metrics as specified by their SDKs. This is similar to how data is reported when you use these services through their native apps.

Thank you for checking with your team, Ryan. I appreciate the explanation, but I still have some follow-up questions about the volume of data being transmitted.

My WiiM Pro Plus is uploading approximately 250MB-300MB of data monthly, with a small percentage going to AWS IOT domains and a significant percentage going to Firehose. This seems excessive for just "small communication packets" for OTA updates and connection maintenance.

To clarify:

1. I've never used Amazon Music or Alexa voice commands with my device, so I'm confused about why streaming service metrics would need to be delivered to AWS unless that's how WiiM collects user data. However in the last thread it was stated "We do not collect or store any personal data from our users."
2. Could you explain specifically what type of data is being sent to the Firehose endpoint in such large quantities?
3. Is there a way to opt out of this data collection while maintaining essential functionality?

I'm genuinely trying to understand what's happening with my device and would appreciate more transparency about the specific data being collected and transmitted.

 

[Burnside]

1. I've never used Amazon Music or Alexa voice commands with my device, so I'm confused about why streaming service metrics would need to be delivered to AWS unless that's how WiiM collects user data. However in the last thread it was stated "We do not collect or store any personal data from our users."

I don’t take the inference that “streaming music from services like Amazon music” suggests that it sends back metrics about Amazon Music if you don’t use it.

Also, unless the data has some personally identifiable data (IP address apart I guess), I can’t see how this can be viewed as “personal data” in the generally accepted interpretation of that term.

If you use any online service, I’d guess that has something in its t&cs about collection of usage metrics. Which do you use?

 

[takeatrip]

I don’t take the inference that “streaming music from services like Amazon music” suggests that it sends back metrics about Amazon Music if you don’t use it.

Also, unless the data has some personally identifiable data (IP address apart I guess), I can’t see how this can be viewed as “personal data” in the generally accepted interpretation of that term.

If you use any online service, I’d guess that has something in its t&cs about collection of usage metrics. Which do you use?

Yeah you very well may be right about that. The thing that I would like clarity on is that regardless if I'm using it or not, its always speaking to AWS Firehose 5-10 times a minute, every day.

I don't see any of those sort of logs from using my streaming services on my network but using other devices. Again, I could be wrong, but I would expect the aforementioned small packets to maintain connectivity and deliver OTA updates would be served using the AWS IOT domains, not Firehose and not 300MB per month.

Firehose is specifically a data collection service. This could very well be for delivering the required usage metrics as stated, but it's so loud on the network even when not being blocked. It's consistently uploading data, even if no music is being streamed for days.

 

[BowsAndArrows]

Yeah you very well may be right about that. The thing that I would like clarity on is that regardless if I'm using it or not, its always speaking to AWS Firehose 5-10 times a minute, every day.

I don't see any of those sort of logs from using my streaming services on my network but using other devices. Again, I could be wrong, but I would expect the aforementioned small packets to maintain connectivity and deliver OTA updates would be served using the AWS IOT domains, not Firehose and not 300MB per month.

Firehose is specifically a data collection service. This could very well be for delivering the required usage metrics as stated, but it's so loud on the network even when not being blocked. It's consistently uploading data, even if no music is being streamed for days.

I agree. This is really important for the team to address detail.

Regardless of your chosen definition of personal data etc, it would be nice to know why it's necessary to transfer 300mb a month in a non-ambiguous way.

Especially when the device is not being used for its main intended purpose!!? That's actually insane - how can the team claim this is for "maintaining functionality"?!