Ethernet WiiM Pro

[Mike in NY]

A basic understanding of networking would be beneficial to some people here. That LAN silencer is an absolute joke

Forgetting that specific product of which I have no direct knowledge or experience with, would you agree that this basic understanding of networking should also include things like AC leakage current and the contribution there by cheap/shitty SMPS, shielded vs. unshielded ethernet cable and why you'd choose one or the other?

 

[onlyoneme]

Forgetting that specific product of which I have no direct knowledge or experience with, would you agree that this basic understanding of networking should also include things like AC leakage current and the contribution there by cheap/shitty SMPS, shielded vs. unshielded ethernet cable and why you'd choose one or the other?

Would you like to explain how this current leakage affects ethernet UTP connection, which is differential and lacks grounding, considering also the fact that ethernet specification requires isolation transformers to be used?

 

[Mike in NY]

Would you like to explain how this current leakage affects ethernet UTP connection, which is differential and lacks grounding, considering also the fact that ethernet specification requires isolation transformers to be used?

No, because I never said it did.
I think you've just illustrated exactly what I'm getting at, that being that a "basic understanding" (italics to denote condescension) of networking does not reveal all aspects of everything that might impact audio performance.
AC leakage current is a real thing, and long recognized by industry, medical, measurement fields etc... for our "science expert" crowd to just dismiss it en masse as meaningless because a company they don't happen to like (e.g. iFi) offers an Ethernet isolation device is completely absurd.
Additionally, I knew a likely reply to me here would involve someone jumping to the conclusion that I didn't know the Ethernet spec requires the use of isolation transformers on every port. Are we to believe these cheap little magnetics found in a typical switch or router are always perfect?
You are not saving the audio world by arguing this sort of thing, nor could you possibly have any idea of all the different home LAN permutations involved, all of the different connections and connected equipment, whether or not shielded Ethernet cables are in use and thus contributing to to a potential issue, or how many cheap as chips SMPS devices could be contributing to a deterioration in sound quality. Mean Well publishes a rating for AC leakage current on their spec sheets, but most others do not... gee I wonder why, could it be that not all SMPS are exactly the same?
Let's leave iFi out of the equation, what if someone wanted to see if they perceive a sonic difference for the better after installing a Baaske MI1005, or EMO Systems EN-70HD... fool's errand complete with accusations of snake oil, or do we only reserve that for the likes of iFi?
How about surge protection, is it OK for someone to use one of these devices both for the isolation and the concurrent surge protection that provides, say for example the ISP's lines are hit by lightning and no one has inspected their safety GND in years, like a large cable TV operator in the U.S. for example, is the use one of these devices as a last line of defense against surges up to 5kV also pure folly?
If AC leakage current can be thought of in some ways similar to a ground loop, and that loop easily broken with the use an isolation device with additional add-on benefit of surge protection, must those employing such a solution (above and beyond what is found in any typical switch or router) be chastised and given directions to books by Ott to read?

 

[onlyoneme]

Plenty of question marks instead of the explanation I was asking for. Ordinary people use unshielded ethernet cabling, professionals know how to implement shielded ones correctly. The only group of persons I'm aware of and who insist on shielded cables for networking are audiophiles, but it will be much better to let them fight with their choices.
If no serious explanation then no discussion for me as there is no case worth discussing.

 

[Guest1]

As usual...a little headwind and the discussion is named "closed".
Could it be companies which do not deliver products for free to the "scientists" are out?

 

[Mike in NY]

Plenty of question marks instead of the explanation I was asking for.

My answer was present, the magnetics found in a typical switch or router do not block all AC leakage current perfectly well in all cases with all network configurations, and the use of shielded Ethernet cables by consumers (Read; not just audiophiles) is far more prevalent than you'd like to think, though that certainly doesn't imply it is the right thing to do.

professionals know how to implement shielded ones correctly.

But which professionals, all? ... all professionals know exactly how to install shielded Ethernet cables so that they do not cause ground loop issues or provide a super highway conduit for leakage current or the pickup of EMI form a nearby power cord or speaker cable then? Some custom installer guy who has a roll of shielded Ethernet cable leftover from a different job isn't going to use that in a consumer install to get rid of it, especially if as you alluded, the audiophile customer actually requests it? Yes, it will be provided.

Yes I know... more question marks, because they are warranted. Your initial response ignores all of these variables and relies much too heavily on "science" and supposed competency of all professionals.

The only group of persons I'm aware of and who insist on shielded cables for networking are audiophiles, but it will be much better to let them fight with their choices.

Not the only group, again painting with a rather broad stroke there, however I do agree with your premise to some extent.

If no serious explanation then no discussion for me as there is no case worth discussing.

A more serious explanation isn't required, however if one were forthcoming it would have to involve a very specific use case scenario, all details such as cable types in use, the various LAN nodes and hardware, use of SMPS, grounding etc... all would play a part, as would your beloved measurements of AC leakage current at both low and high impedance.

TL : DR These broad stroke type condescending accusations of someone lacking a basic understanding of networking or being stupid/gullible enough to exploit with snake oil just because they've wondered out loud about a LAN isolation device are ridiculous and uncalled for, and don't begin to really discuss the topic at all. More like self-serving high on the horse hyperbole to denigrate the perception of what is an audiophile.

 

[Mike in NY]

As usual...a little headwind and the discussion is named "closed".

That's OK, I'm definitely willing to close it.

Could it be companies which do not deliver products for free to the "scientists" are out?

Perhaps, and also if the top scientist's custom install/home automation company doesn't carry their brand then those products are also attacked, while pure BS like MQA is simultaneously defended likely because said custom install/home automation company carries Harman and Berkeley Audio Design.

 

[onlyoneme]

My answer was present, the magnetics found in a typical switch or router do not block all AC leakage current perfectly well in all cases with all network configurations, and the use of shielded Ethernet cables by consumers (Read; not just audiophiles) is far more prevalent than you'd like to think, though that certainly doesn't imply it is the right thing to do.

Is it the answer for my question regarding UTP case?

But which professionals, all? ... all professionals know exactly how to install shielded Ethernet cables so that they do not cause ground loop issues or provide a super highway conduit for leakage current or the pickup of EMI form a nearby power cord or speaker cable then? Some custom installer guy who has a roll of shielded Ethernet cable leftover from a different job isn't going to use that in a consumer install to get rid of it, especially if as you alluded, the audiophile customer actually requests it? Yes, it will be provided.

Yes I know... more question marks, because they are warranted. Your initial response ignores all of these variables and relies much too heavily on "science" and supposed competency of all professionals.

Professionals who design and implement properly network infrastructure cabling. Not so-called "professionals".

Not the only group, again painting with a rather broad stroke there, however I do agree with your premise to some extent.

The only group I'm aware of, as I said. I can imagine individuals with the lack of basic knowledge why shielded installations should be avoided for consumers.

TL : DR These broad stroke type condescending accusations of someone lacking a basic understanding of networking or being stupid/gullible enough to exploit with snake oil just because they've wondered out loud about a LAN isolation device are ridiculous and uncalled for, and don't begin to really discuss the topic at all. More like self-serving high on the horse hyperbole to denigrate the perception of what is an audiophile.

There are serious devices like surge protectors or usb/ethernet isolators, which are designed to solve specific issues. What is ridiculous is trying to connect their work with imagined audio enhancements in the way some companies do.

 

[Mike in NY]

Is it the answer for my question regarding UTP case?

No it is not, however in my original post that you replied to I had stated "shielded vs. unshielded ethernet cable and why you'd choose one or the other" in an attempt to illustrate why the condescending remark about a basic understanding of networking being beneficial to some people here and the mocking conclusion that a LAN isolator is an absolute joke is just a bridge too far, and I stand by that.

Professionals who design and implement properly network infrastructure cabling. Not so-called "professionals".

Again illustrating my point about the painting with broad strokes, not all "professionals" will always do the right thing, and unfortunately all too many DIYers will get bad advice (or find bad information on the internet) there too, and not just audiophiles, not by a long shot.

The only group I'm aware of, as I said. I can imagine individuals with the lack of basic knowledge why shielded installations should be avoided for consumers.

Not the only group, and many will buy a shielded Ethernet cable without even knowing that's what they've done, they didn't bother to understand or research what the various types of Ethernet cable are for and how they are marked.

There are serious devices like surge protectors or usb/ethernet isolators, which are designed to solve specific issues. What is ridiculous is trying to connect their work with imagined audio enhancements in the way some companies do.

Alright, and so presumably we are back to the iFi-like companies of the world who make lots of marketing claims, but not necessarily the broad stroke absurdity of labeling someone's use of a LAN isolator in a consumer environment (whose specific structure and all other variables are not even known) just being a gullible fool.

 

[onlyoneme]

No it is not, however in my original post that you replied to I had stated "shielded vs. unshielded ethernet cable and why you'd choose one or the other" in an attempt to illustrate why the condescending remark about a basic understanding of networking being beneficial to some people here and the mocking conclusion that a LAN isolator is an absolute joke is just a bridge too far, and I stand by that.

So what's the point? I didn't reply to your post, I've asked a question about the most basic scenario which ordinary people face. I'm aware that other scenarios can happen also, and some of them can bring plenty of issues.

Again illustrating my point about the painting with broad strokes, not all "professionals" will always do the right thing, and unfortunately all too many DIYers will get bad advice (or find bad information on the internet) there too, and not just audiophiles, not by a long shot.

Anyone who lacks basic knowledge related to his work is a "professional", not professional. That's my opinion and the basis of my statement.

Not the only group, and many will buy a shielded Ethernet cable without even knowing that's what they've done, they didn't bother to understand or research what the various types of Ethernet cable are for and how they are marked.

You seem to have missed one word - "insist". I mentioned a group that insists on shielded cables. These unaware do not insist on such a thing.

Alright, and so presumably we are back to the iFi-like companies of the world who make lots of marketing claims, but not necessarily the broad stroke absurdity of labeling someone's use of a LAN isolator in a consumer environment (whose specific structure and all other variables are not even known) just being a gullible fool.

It's not about lan isolators, it's about the specific iFi device. Although it wasn't my statement I'm quite confident that the complaint was rather to iFi promises than usefulness of isolators in general.

 

[Mike in NY]

So what's the point? I didn't reply to your post

I've made my point, you clearly did reply to my post, and I did answer your question clearly indicating that I'd never said that leakage current affects UTP Ethernet connections.
Since you did note that I mentioned the use of shielded vs. unshielded Ethernet cables in my original reply, you knew where I was going with it, the point is when someone merely mentions the use of a LAN isolator in a consumer environment, that should not then result in the immediate blanket statement of a need for basic understanding of networking (condescending/rude/presumptive), and the further proclamation of it being an absolute joke. As I said two posts back, that's simply a bridge too far, and it conveniently overlooks far too many specific use case variables.

Anyone who lacks basic knowledge related to his work is a "professional", not professional. That's my opinion and the basis of my statement.

Yes but look at your original reply, you simply said professionals (no quote marks) which I took to be an ill defined call to authority, and I even provided an example scenario of a professional that might not be inclined to do things in the absolute correct manner.

You seem to have missed one word - "insist". I mentioned a group that insists on shielded cables. These unaware do not insist on such a thing.

Except that isn't true at all, plenty of audiophiles insist on UTP, me for example. Those unaware may not know they aren't getting UTP, or they may not know why they don't want that installed by a "Professional", but that doesn't mean it never happens. When that does happen, a LAN isolator might then be a potential benefit, especially if those cables are now covered over in the finished walls (though a savvier inexpensive fix would be to cut the shield).

It's not about lan isolators, it's about the specific iFi device.

OK, and my original post indicated I know nothing of that specific device, no experience there. My objection was to the derogatory tone in which the use of such a product was derided as a joke. Am I missing the full set of measurements proving the iFi device is garbage? If that exists I've not seen it, sorry, but that's why I broadened the conversation to non-audiophile brands like Baaske and EMO Systems, both of which claim efficacy in audio applications and neither of which receive any meaningful amount of revenue from such, nor would they bother risking their reputations on such a small niche of buyers.

 

[onlyoneme]

I've made my point, you clearly did reply to my post, and I did answer your question clearly indicating that I'd never said that leakage current affects UTP Ethernet connections.
Since you did note that I mentioned the use of shielded vs. unshielded Ethernet cables in my original reply, you knew where I was going with it, the point is when someone merely mentions the use of a LAN isolator in a consumer environment, that should not then result in the immediate blanket statement of a need for basic understanding of networking (condescending/rude/presumptive), and the further proclamation of it being an absolute joke. As I said two posts back, that's simply a bridge too far, and it conveniently overlooks far too many specific use case variables.

You asked a question, I asked mine in reaction. It wasn't an answer nor reply. No point for further discussion on this topic for me if there is no current leakage for the scenario I brought.
But if you insist to do so, familiarize yourself with this iFi device internals, its specification and the pulse transformer inside. After that we can start arguing if it's an absolute joke or not.

Yes but look at your original reply, you simply said professionals (no quote marks) which I took to be an ill defined call to authority, and I even provided an example scenario of a professional that might not be inclined to do things in the absolute correct manner.

I have mentioned professionals and so-called "professionals", with further distinction of differences. I have no idea what's unclear here.

Except that isn't true at all, plenty of audiophiles insist on UTP, me for example. Those unaware may not know they aren't getting UTP, or they may not know why they don't want that installed by a "Professional", but that doesn't mean it never happens. When that does happen, a LAN isolator might then be a potential benefit, especially if those cables are now covered over in the finished walls (though a savvier inexpensive fix would be to cut the shield).

I'm glad that smarter audiophiles also exist, but I didn't deny their existence. I've mentioned these insisting on shielded cabling as the only group I'm aware of. No idea why you bring these unaware back to the discussion.

OK, and my original post indicated I know nothing of that specific device, no experience there. My objection was to the derogatory tone in which the use of such a product was derided as a joke. Am I missing the full set of measurements proving the iFi device is garbage? If that exists I've not seen it, sorry, but that's why I broadened the conversation to non-audiophile brands like Baaske and EMO Systems, both of which claim efficacy in audio applications and neither of which receive any meaningful amount of revenue from such, nor would they bother risking their reputations on such a small niche of buyers.

I have nothing against serious isolators, I use few of them, usb ones precisely. But if you want to discuss about "iFi LAN iSilencer" I recommend again to get familiar with it at least a bit.

 

[waldo]

Umu umu well, I'll stagger in and bring things down to my level... Do unshielded (UTP) ethernet cables actually expose analog circuitry in the destination device (WiiM Pro here) to EMI, and if yes, is the effect so small as to be outside audible limits (human), rendering "solutions" pointless? If not so small, would shielded (STP) cables be the answer, even better, with grounding only on the source end (a router or switch)? Don't bite me... If this was all answered above, it was over my head ....

 

[onlyoneme]

Do you live in a factory or plan to lay ethernet cables near very high interference devices?

 

[d6jg]

Forgetting that specific product of which I have no direct knowledge or experience with, would you agree that this basic understanding of networking should also include things like AC leakage current and the contribution there by cheap/shitty SMPS, shielded vs. unshielded ethernet cable and why you'd choose one or the other?

Yes and No.
The premise I object to is that a LAN silencer or similar will somehow make the digital audio sound better. It won't. It might mitigate the potential for packet loss but TCP has built in correction algorithims. When you get packet loss to such an extent that these algorithims can't correct the flow you tend to get complete loss or loss that manifests itself in choppy audio. Things such as shielded cables might have a positive effect but it can't make something that already works correctly sound better than it already did.

 

[Brantome]

Yes and No.

I initially read your opener as a response to @onlyoneme’s post - however, re-reading removed the shock that you lived in a factory

 

[waldo]

Do you live in a factory or plan to lay ethernet cables near very high interference devices?

Asking me? No, my WiiM is on a wooden audio rack with everything else, connected to the switch with a 1-meter long UTP cable, and about a half-meter away from floor speaker, integrated amp, etc. My system seems noise-free (to my old ears), has no hum from ground loops, etc., but I was curious to know if cabling or proximity to nearby devices might/could introduce EMI. Well, I guess this is off-topic ....

 

[Mike in NY]

Well, I guess this is off-topic ....

Perhaps... but

WiiM is on a wooden audio rack with everything else, connected to the switch with a 1-meter long UTP cable

You are certainly all good to go!

 

[Vangelo51]

Plenty of question marks instead of the explanation I was asking for. Ordinary people use unshielded ethernet cabling, professionals know how to implement shielded ones correctly. The only group of persons I'm aware of and who insist on shielded cables for networking are audiophiles, but it will be much better to let them fight with their choices.
If no serious explanation then no discussion for me as there is no case worth discussing.

Why dont you butt-out then and leave us to our choices?

I have taken this one step further and replaced the shielded cable with an optical one which I soaked overnight in snake oil!

There is a whole thread dedicated to this subject on The AudioStandard forum. I dare you to raise the same objections over there and see how long you last!

I find your responses tedious & predictable. You spoil my enjoyment of hifi which I have had an interest in for over 50 years, and also of this fine forum where I like to see what other enthusiasts are doing in a non scientific way. You already have a forum where you can practice your science. Why do you have to infect us here? Like I said.....go over to TAS and I will break out the popcorn as they tear you apart

Like YOU say, it is not worth the discussion so BUTT-OUT!

 

[Griff]

Why dont you butt-out then and leave us to out choices?

I have taken this one step further and replaced the shielded cable with an optical one which I soaked overnight in snake oil!
View attachment 2469
There is a whole thread dedicated to this subject on The AudioStandard forum. I dare you to raise the same objections over there and see how long you last!

I find your responses tedious & predictable. You spoil my enjoyment of hifi which I have had an interest in for over 50 years, and also of this fine forum where I like to see what other enthusiasts are doing in a non scientific way. You already have a forum where you can practice your science. Why do you have to infect us here? Like I said.....go over to TAS and I will break out the popcorn as they tear you apart

Like YOU say, it is not worth the discussion so BUTT-OUT!

This is quite interesting . I assume its all about isolation of any em picked up during the journey over the house network. I run a few powerline adapters to get the signal around different switches and APs around the house and have always wondered about any potential issues. (Before anyone asks, it's a victoriana house literally built into the side of a hill, the oposite of being wifi friendly and the power is not the best). I use usb isolation and optical at the moment where I can but as I said an interesting idea if there is any issues in the network. Assume you try and have as clean power as you can on the media converters