Features wanted in a Wiim Ultra 2

[TonyE]

In that case, I think the price would be roughly equivalent to Eversolo. If that were to happen, would it still be acceptable?

No.

At that point you start getting some really good DACs. And the combination of current Ultra with an external DAC starts to push into the High End.

Look, a WiiM Ultra + Nitsch Pietus Maximus with Multibit USB DAC runs, today, 1200 bucks. Using only the ethernet/WiFi in and USB out of the Ultra plus it's streaming... it gives you a great streamer that sounds better -when coupled with an external USB DAC- than the all in one Eversolo (the Nitsch is a stripped down version of a fancier Schiit, just the minimum functionality at the highest quality ).

And in the future, you can upgrade the DAC easily while keeping the streaming functions untouched.

If the WiiM Ultra were to move up... it would start competing with much stronger competition. If WiiM were to release a streamer only, then the volume would drop and they price would not be any cheaper. So, pretty much, at its price point, the Ultra has no competition and does a few things extremely well, the rest does at a Mid-Fi level.

If anything, I'd dump the phono preamp and put the money on some better opamps and do a balanced output. Perhaps offer an optional analog power supply as an upgrade. I would not raise the price more than 50 bucks. For fun, they could make the analog output section made with DIP sockets so people could roll the op amps.

 

[adias]

In that case, I think the price would be roughly equivalent to Eversolo. If that were to happen, would it still be acceptable?

A price hike is a marketing decision. A transport has far fewer parts and even if those are better quality the BOM (Bill of Materials) should not be any different from current offerings.

 

[adias]

No.

At that point you start getting some really good DACs. Look, a WiiM Ultra + Nitsch Pietus Maximus with Multibit USB DAC ( speciality audio version of Schiit ) runs, today, 1200 bucks. Using only the ethernet/WiFi in and USB out of the Ultra plus it's streaming... it gives you a great streamer that sounds better than the Eversolo ( the Nitsch is a stripped down version, just the minimum functionaly at the highest quality ).

If the WiiM Ultra were to move up... it would start competing with much stronger competition. If WiiM were to release a streamer only, then the volume would drop and they price would not be any cheaper. So, pretty much, at its price point, the Ultra has no competition and does a few things extremely well, the rest does at a Mid-Fi level.

If anything, I'd dump the phono preamp and put the money on some better opamps and do a balanced output. Perhaps offer an optional analog power supply as an upgrade.

What some are suggesting is a strict streamer - no preamp, no screen, no DAC, with upgraded parts, especially power supply. Priced around $500 would sell like pancakes.

 

[Smartplug]

It makes me laugh they spend so much time and money upgrading dacs, preamp, streamer among other. Even an entry level devices in this modern time are so transparent. You can have .000001 thd plus noise but that will useless once it gets to speaker that has higher distortion. Invest on better speaker would do more justice even on untrained ear.

 

[TonyE]

What some are suggesting is a strict streamer - no preamp, no screen, no DAC, with upgraded parts, especially power supply. Priced around $500 would sell like pancakes.

I doubt it.

See... there is no market for that. There is nothing that would differentiate it from a cheap Chinese part. And sound wise, likely it would make no difference either. Heck, a PC would do the job just as good. Or an Android with a bit perfect audio driver.

See... a Raspberry will actually run rings around the WiiM Ultra as a streamer... and there are some really awesome DIY audio boards for it too. I got them too, but I got the WiiM Ultra because it's cheap enough and connects nicely to my wife's phone and does bit perfect. And it looks nice on the shelf... as opposed to my setting up yet another Raspberry that looks -because it is- one of Tony's DIY projects.

 

[TonyE]

It makes me laugh they spend so much time and money upgrading dacs, preamp, streamer among other. Even an entry level devices in this modern time are so transparent. You can have .000001 thd plus noise but that will useless once it gets to speaker that has higher distortion. Invest on better speaker would do more justice even on untrained ear.

Well, then, get a better audio system and come back to tell us.

 

[Smartplug]

I’d rather have a Toyota than a Lexus with the extra money in my pocket

People look at you better driving Lexus over typical Toyota.

 

[Smartplug]

Well, then, get a better audio system and come back to tell us.

I already have and stop buying gear. I got the gear I like how it sound it even satisfy my discriminating ear.

 

[TonyE]

People look at you better driving Lexus over typical Toyota.

Nope... I don't do Toyota products. They lack handling prowess. I do Honda products. And don't knock the Acuras either.

But don't worry, you won't see me... because with rear torque steering AWD I'll be exiting the apex under full power by the time you realize that there's a curve ahead.

 

[TonyE]

I already have and stop buying gear. I got the gear I like how it sound it even satisfy my discriminating ear.

OK, I got over 42 audio amplifiers... Class A, AB, D, tubes... lots of DIY... preamps, speakers, etc, etc...

If you say that you can NOT hear the sound of a DAC or an amp or a preamp... then I say you need better equipment...

Heck, have you even tried rolling op amps? Or listening to the sound of a transformer? You know, they sound different. There are time and frequency domain differences in how they sound and it can be heard clearly.

Let me give you a secret...

The "sound" of a DAC is driven by both the resolution of the DAC and its analog section. Once you've taken enough care of the DAC, the biggest difference is in the analog circuitry. Things like noise, phase response, amplifier design become very important because these are low level ( 2V ) circuits. Most DACs, even ones that claim to be be "very good" get dirt cheap with the output circuits.

Instead of spending money on speakers... spend the money on a DAC that has an exceptional analog output section that can drive lots of current. That will give you a circuit that can drive the preamp nicely and handle transients (dynamics) very well. Cheap circuits just don't cut it here. And by "cheap" I don't mean you need a High End 10,000 DAC... you just need to look around and learn and listen and read to find the good DACs out there.

If you read above, you'll see I quoted one. I got several more. Once you get to 24/96 pretty much you're done with the DAC...

 

[Smartplug]

Nope... I don't do Toyota. They lack handling prowess. I do Honda products. And don't knock the Acuras either.

But don't worry, you won't see me... because with rear torque steering AWD I'll be exiting the apex under full power by the time you realize that there's a curve ahead.

I’m not talking about brute force, I’m saying people would look at you that have deep pocket driving Lexus over Toyota. Look, even your car top speed 500 mph your brand still typical everyday driving car.

 

[Smartplug]

OK, I got over 42 audio amplifiers... Class A, AB, D, tubes... lots of DIY... preamps, speakers, etc, etc...

If you say that you can NOT hear the sound of a DAC or an amp or a preamp... then I say you need better equipment...

Heck, have you even tried rolling op amps? Or listening to the sound of a transformer? You know, they sound different. There are time and frequency domain differences in how they sound and it can be heard clearly.

Where did I say I can’t hear? Do you pre read before responding?

 

[harkpabst]

What's an analog power supply?

 

[TonyE]

A linear power supply as opposed to a switching power supply.

Ever heard of the First Watt F5 amp?

In the DIYAudio world there is a clone version. Two actually, the F5 and the F5m.

I've had the DIY F5 with the linear power supply for years... right now I'm in the process of getting an F5m with Meanwell switching power supplies and some really cool filters.... we'll see. If it fails, I can always rip out the Meanwell and go back to the default linear PS.

One of the places where manufacturers cut costs is in the power supply -and the analog low level sections. Often, upgrading the "brick" power supply to one with more current ( look for more amps ) is that it allows the analog devices to operate with less compression when the signal gets loud. Linear power supplies tend to be the cleanest as well, with least hash noise in them.

But they are more expensive.

Hence, for a device like the Ultra with a DAC and an analog output section, a more power power supply with less noise "should" benefit its dynamics. Note I wrote "should" because it all depends too on how good the analog circuits are to begin with.

 

[TonyE]

Where did I say I can’t hear? Do you pre read before responding?

Buy a better DAC.

You replied while I was editing my post.

 

[Smartplug]

A linear power supply as opposed to a switching power supply.

In theory of design there’s a difference but the question would the listener hear the difference? None matter if listener can tell difference.

 

[Smartplug]

Buy a better DAC.

Haha, the return investment buying exotic dac are minimal.

 

[TonyE]

Haha, the return investment buying exotic dac are minimal.

A $500 DAC is exotic?

And minimal? That's a loaded term. It's a free country, so that's the beauty of it, some people poo poo it, others enjoy. So, it's better not to start passing judgement because people have different priorities.

Anyhow, I better stop editing this post before you reply... let me just say that quality and price are not commensurate.

 

[harkpabst]

I've heard of everything but an analog power supply.

 

[Smartplug]

A $500 DAC is exotic?

And minimal? That's a loaded term.

Anyhow, I better stop editing this post before you reply... let me just say that quality and price are not commensurate.

Again where did I say 500? What I’m saying you can buy the most expensive dac in the known universe the return performance is just minimal, why? Modern dac even entry are transparent.