Features wanted in a Wiim Ultra 2

[TonyE]

I replied to that...

Look, I do schematics sometimes.. A linear power supply ( which is what I meant ) is very simple... transformer, diodes and caps. it can be thought of as a standard analog circuit. Its noise components tend to be multiples of the line source.

A switching power supply is much more complex... so I tend to think of it as a digital circuit. It has noise components related to its switching frequency.

 

[Smartplug]

I replied to that...

Look, I do schematics sometimes.. A linear power supply ( which is what I meant ) is very simple... transformer, diodes and caps. it can be thought of as a standard analog circuit. Its noise components tend to be multiples of the line source.

A switching power supply is much more complex... so I tend to think of it as a digital circuit. It has noise components related to its switching frequency.

If you like we can do blind test, just give me your address.

 

[TonyE]

In theory of design there’s a difference but the question would the listener hear the difference? None matter if listener can tell difference.

Theory.

Well, in Physics we have theories and models. Lots of them.

And when it comes to psychoacoustics we know that we really don't know what it is that makes things sound good.

Some people, gulp!, actually like the way negative 2nd order harmonic distortion sounds. Some people like how tubes, triodes, pentodes sound. Others like the sound of Class A amps.. and how different types of transistors sound. We know that different transconductance curves sound different.

Some people call it distortion... others counter that we do not have a complete theoretical model of how the ear/brain reacts to sound so we don't know what else we need to "measure"... and on and on and on.

But one thing everybody seems to agree is that dynamic compression of sound is not good. When sound gets compressed at it gets loud, it doesn't sound good ( OK, kids today like that stuff I guess, I call it noise... )... So, a better power supply, able to maintain the voltage steady as the current increases is as good thing to have in any analog circuit.

A linear power supply. With good old analog circuits... big toroid, big caps, big diodes, etc..

 

[TonyE]

If you like we can do blind test, just give me your address.

you can PM me. I can describe my listening setups.

BTW, one of my current projects has been to op amp roll my Pearl 3 phono preamplifier. I got like 12 or so op amps. We can start in there... you will hear the difference.

Then the amps and speakers... I can bring out more and more and more... and trust me, you WILL hear it.

And trust me... nothing of mine is particularly expensive. I mean nothing is CHEAP either. But it's a matter of knowing what to get and how to get it. I tend to buy used or DIY. The best, of course, is buying used DIY. You just need to know what you're doing.

And you keep going back about "modern DACs" being transparent.

What exactly is "modern"... what exactly is "transparent"? Those are loaded terms.

I got a Burson Swing DAC on my main system right now. It's a few years old, got it on sale then for about 550 bucks with the V4 op amps, has several filters ( I use the default filter ) and is set up to roll the op amps. Currently I got the Burson Vivid V7s on it. I also have the Classic V7, the Vivid and Classic V6, the V5 and V4 as well. I can tell you the sound changes quite a bit... even though the DAC section is playing the same music and with the same filter selection.

Like I keep trying to tell you, it the ANALOG SECTION of the DAC that matters the most once you have reached a certain performance plateau. and you can hear it clearly.

And, 500 bucks is, in my experience, the point at which you reach this plateau.

You might notice that I'm quoting specific components.. you might want to search the Internet about them and see what people say about them.

Anyway, I think we've gone far off.... if you want to discuss this, PM me and we can discuss this. IMHO, what the WiiM Ultra needs is:

No phono preamp
Balanced analog outputs
Updated analog output circuits - capable of op amp rolling.
Optional linear power supply

Better WiiM Home software.

Keep the price under 400 bucks.

 

[Smartplug]

Theory.

Well, in Physics we have theories and models. Lots of them.

And when it comes to psychoacoustics we know that we really don't know what it is that makes things sound good.

Some people, gulp!, actually like the way negative 2nd order harmonic distortion sounds. Some people like how tubes, triodes, pentodes sound. Others like the sound of Class A amps.. and how different types of transistors sound. We know that different transconductance curves sound different.

Some people call it distortion... others counter that we do not have a complete theoretical model of how the ear/brain reacts to sound so we don't know what else we need to "measure"... and on and on and on.

But one thing everybody seems to agree is that dynamic compression of sound is not good. When sound gets compressed at it gets loud, it doesn't sound good ( OK, kids today like that stuff I guess, I call it noise... )... So, a better power supply, able to maintain the voltage steady as the current increases is as good thing to have in any analog circuit.

A linear power supply. With good old analog circuits... big toroid, big caps, big diodes, etc..

A lot things have changed how listener listen to music. Many listeners now are just casual as long a music play it all that matters. Many of them went portable and few are just audiophile. Back in the days when there were so many brand speakers. Boston acoustics, energy just to name few no longer exist.

 

[TonyE]

Portable audio... OK, nothing to do with the WiiM Ultra... but around '03 I created my own High End portable audio.... it was a iPod, a DAC and a pack of rechargeable batteries, complete with rubber bands, LEDs, etc....

The first time I tried taking it through security at the airport... I thought they were gonna vacate the whole place and call the bomb squad.

It did look like a....

Anyways. It was fun and it did CD quality rather well.

 

[Kblade97]

OK, I got over 42 audio amplifiers... Class A, AB, D, tubes... lots of DIY... preamps, speakers, etc, etc...

If you say that you can NOT hear the sound of a DAC or an amp or a preamp... then I say you need better equipment...

Heck, have you even tried rolling op amps? Or listening to the sound of a transformer? You know, they sound different. There are time and frequency domain differences in how they sound and it can be heard clearly.

Let me give you a secret...

The "sound" of a DAC is driven by both the resolution of the DAC and its analog section. Once you've taken enough care of the DAC, the biggest difference is in the analog circuitry. Things like noise, phase response, amplifier design become very important because these are low level ( 2V ) circuits. Most DACs, even ones that claim to be be "very good" get dirt cheap with the output circuits.

Instead of spending money on speakers... spend the money on a DAC that has an exceptional analog output section that can drive lots of current. That will give you a circuit that can drive the preamp nicely and handle transients (dynamics) very well. Cheap circuits just don't cut it here. And by "cheap" I don't mean you need a High End 10,000 DAC... you just need to look around and learn and listen and read to find the good DACs out there.

If you read above, you'll see I quoted one. I got several more. Once you get to 24/96 pretty much you're done with the DAC...

Nailed it
The analog stage is so important. No one ever seems to mention it. I would rather have a lesser dac chip set and a great analog stage, than a great dac with crappy analog stage.

 

[Kblade97]

What some are suggesting is a strict streamer - no preamp, no screen, no DAC, with upgraded parts, especially power supply. Priced around $500 would sell like pancakes.

Better analog stages too

 

[adias]

Better analog stages too

Great analog stages in a DAC output stage, certainly. But in this suggested streamer transport there’s no analog stage, as there is no DAC - it’s a streamer connecting to an external DAC.