Features wanted in a Wiim Ultra 2

[TonyE]

I replied to that...

Look, I do schematics sometimes.. A linear power supply ( which is what I meant ) is very simple... transformer, diodes and caps. it can be thought of as a standard analog circuit. Its noise components tend to be multiples of the line source.

A switching power supply is much more complex... so I tend to think of it as a digital circuit. It has noise components related to its switching frequency.

 

[Smartplug]

I replied to that...

Look, I do schematics sometimes.. A linear power supply ( which is what I meant ) is very simple... transformer, diodes and caps. it can be thought of as a standard analog circuit. Its noise components tend to be multiples of the line source.

A switching power supply is much more complex... so I tend to think of it as a digital circuit. It has noise components related to its switching frequency.

If you like we can do blind test, just give me your address.

 

[TonyE]

In theory of design there’s a difference but the question would the listener hear the difference? None matter if listener can tell difference.

Theory.

Well, in Physics we have theories and models. Lots of them.

And when it comes to psychoacoustics we know that we really don't know what it is that makes things sound good.

Some people, gulp!, actually like the way negative 2nd order harmonic distortion sounds. Some people like how tubes, triodes, pentodes sound. Others like the sound of Class A amps.. and how different types of transistors sound. We know that different transconductance curves sound different.

Some people call it distortion... others counter that we do not have a complete theoretical model of how the ear/brain reacts to sound so we don't know what else we need to "measure"... and on and on and on.

But one thing everybody seems to agree is that dynamic compression of sound is not good. When sound gets compressed at it gets loud, it doesn't sound good ( OK, kids today like that stuff I guess, I call it noise... )... So, a better power supply, able to maintain the voltage steady as the current increases is as good thing to have in any analog circuit.

A linear power supply. With good old analog circuits... big toroid, big caps, big diodes, etc..

 

[TonyE]

If you like we can do blind test, just give me your address.

you can PM me. I can describe my listening setups.

BTW, one of my current projects has been to op amp roll my Pearl 3 phono preamplifier. I got like 12 or so op amps. We can start in there... you will hear the difference.

Then the amps and speakers... I can bring out more and more and more... and trust me, you WILL hear it.

And trust me... nothing of mine is particularly expensive. I mean nothing is CHEAP either. But it's a matter of knowing what to get and how to get it. I tend to buy used or DIY. The best, of course, is buying used DIY. You just need to know what you're doing.

And you keep going back about "modern DACs" being transparent.

What exactly is "modern"... what exactly is "transparent"? Those are loaded terms.

I got a Burson Swing DAC on my main system right now. It's a few years old, got it on sale then for about 550 bucks with the V4 op amps, has several filters ( I use the default filter ) and is set up to roll the op amps. Currently I got the Burson Vivid V7s on it. I also have the Classic V7, the Vivid and Classic V6, the V5 and V4 as well. I can tell you the sound changes quite a bit... even though the DAC section is playing the same music and with the same filter selection.

Like I keep trying to tell you, it the ANALOG SECTION of the DAC that matters the most once you have reached a certain performance plateau. and you can hear it clearly.

And, 500 bucks is, in my experience, the point at which you reach this plateau.

You might notice that I'm quoting specific components.. you might want to search the Internet about them and see what people say about them.

Anyway, I think we've gone far off.... if you want to discuss this, PM me and we can discuss this. IMHO, what the WiiM Ultra needs is:

No phono preamp
Balanced analog outputs
Updated analog output circuits - capable of op amp rolling.
Optional linear power supply

Better WiiM Home software.

Keep the price under 400 bucks.

 

[Smartplug]

Theory.

Well, in Physics we have theories and models. Lots of them.

And when it comes to psychoacoustics we know that we really don't know what it is that makes things sound good.

Some people, gulp!, actually like the way negative 2nd order harmonic distortion sounds. Some people like how tubes, triodes, pentodes sound. Others like the sound of Class A amps.. and how different types of transistors sound. We know that different transconductance curves sound different.

Some people call it distortion... others counter that we do not have a complete theoretical model of how the ear/brain reacts to sound so we don't know what else we need to "measure"... and on and on and on.

But one thing everybody seems to agree is that dynamic compression of sound is not good. When sound gets compressed at it gets loud, it doesn't sound good ( OK, kids today like that stuff I guess, I call it noise... )... So, a better power supply, able to maintain the voltage steady as the current increases is as good thing to have in any analog circuit.

A linear power supply. With good old analog circuits... big toroid, big caps, big diodes, etc..

A lot things have changed how listener listen to music. Many listeners now are just casual as long a music play it all that matters. Many of them went portable and few are just audiophile. Back in the days when there were so many brand speakers. Boston acoustics, energy just to name few no longer exist.

 

[TonyE]

Portable audio... OK, nothing to do with the WiiM Ultra... but around '03 I created my own High End portable audio.... it was a iPod, a DAC and a pack of rechargeable batteries, complete with rubber bands, LEDs, etc....

The first time I tried taking it through security at the airport... I thought they were gonna vacate the whole place and call the bomb squad.

It did look like a....

Anyways. It was fun and it did CD quality rather well.

 

[Kblade97]

OK, I got over 42 audio amplifiers... Class A, AB, D, tubes... lots of DIY... preamps, speakers, etc, etc...

If you say that you can NOT hear the sound of a DAC or an amp or a preamp... then I say you need better equipment...

Heck, have you even tried rolling op amps? Or listening to the sound of a transformer? You know, they sound different. There are time and frequency domain differences in how they sound and it can be heard clearly.

Let me give you a secret...

The "sound" of a DAC is driven by both the resolution of the DAC and its analog section. Once you've taken enough care of the DAC, the biggest difference is in the analog circuitry. Things like noise, phase response, amplifier design become very important because these are low level ( 2V ) circuits. Most DACs, even ones that claim to be be "very good" get dirt cheap with the output circuits.

Instead of spending money on speakers... spend the money on a DAC that has an exceptional analog output section that can drive lots of current. That will give you a circuit that can drive the preamp nicely and handle transients (dynamics) very well. Cheap circuits just don't cut it here. And by "cheap" I don't mean you need a High End 10,000 DAC... you just need to look around and learn and listen and read to find the good DACs out there.

If you read above, you'll see I quoted one. I got several more. Once you get to 24/96 pretty much you're done with the DAC...

Nailed it
The analog stage is so important. No one ever seems to mention it. I would rather have a lesser dac chip set and a great analog stage, than a great dac with crappy analog stage.

 

[Kblade97]

What some are suggesting is a strict streamer - no preamp, no screen, no DAC, with upgraded parts, especially power supply. Priced around $500 would sell like pancakes.

Better analog stages too

 

[adias]

Better analog stages too

Great analog stages in a DAC output stage, certainly. But in this suggested streamer transport there’s no analog stage, as there is no DAC - it’s a streamer connecting to an external DAC.

 

[TonyE]

Great analog stages in a DAC output stage, certainly. But in this suggested streamer transport there’s no analog stage, as there is no DAC - it’s a streamer connecting to an external DAC.

A WiiM Streamer only will get killed by the cheap Chinese things. It will be a race to the bottom.

Only in the High End will people spend thousands of dollars for a pure streamer.... because they don't want a "computer".

Between the cheap streamers and the Nose Bleed Bespoke units, there's only room for a Raspberry or a PC/Mac as a streamer.

Now, normally I avoid ASR because I have deep fundamental technical differences with them.. but on this one they have SOME very good information.

DIY Streamer based on Raspberry Pi 5

All this re-clockers, low-jitter transports are completely new things for me, and they are not cheap. Any thoughts on this - is this worth it, and with what equipment, or is it just better to buy some existing streamers?

www.audiosciencereview.com

See? The market for a pure streamer is bifurcated... either it's very, very cheap or it's stupidly expensive with very low volume, jewel case units which cost a ton because the non recurring cost of R&D is borne by just a few sales. In the middle you got... PCs... Or you go with a PC and a DAC.

Forget Bluetooth.

The solos present an interesting feature, but the WiiM Ultra does an excellent job as a streamer and makes the DAC optional. So to maintain the volume in sales and carry the R&D costs it needs to have a broader market segment... so it needs to have its own DAC.

IMHO.

BTW, one of these days Schiit might come up with a plug in board for the streamer/network connection. With their plug in DACs, analog circuits, Mike Moffat designing and what not... a $1500 Schiit integrated streamer/DAC might be an audio killer and sell like hot cakes. Note they are now introducing an even better unit.

Can WiiM move to that market? I doubt it.

Heck, I might get one of those uber Schitt DACs to go with my Ultra one of these days.

WiiM is a very nice product. They are walking a very fine line in features and cost. Currently what they offer is rather unique in their positioning. As I noted earlier, they should simply make their analog circuitry better.

Maybe introduce an USB input as well so it can be used as a "normal" sound card? I think that would make it unique, specially at it's price point.

 

[adias]

A WiiM Streamer only will get killed by the cheap Chinese things. It will be a race to the bottom.

Only in the High End will people spend thousands of dollars for a pure streamer.... because they don't want a "computer".

Between the cheap streamers and the Nose Bleed Bespoke units, there's only room for a Raspberry or a PC/Mac as a streamer.

Now, normally I avoid ASR because I have deep fundamental technical differences with them.. but on this one they have SOME very good information.

DIY Streamer based on Raspberry Pi 5

All this re-clockers, low-jitter transports are completely new things for me, and they are not cheap. Any thoughts on this - is this worth it, and with what equipment, or is it just better to buy some existing streamers?

www.audiosciencereview.com

See? The market for a pure streamer is bifurcated... either it's very, very cheap or it's stupidly expensive with very low volume, jewel case units which cost a ton because the non recurring cost of R&D is borne by just a few sales. In the middle you got... PCs... Or you go with a PC and a DAC.

Forget Bluetooth.

The solos present an interesting feature, but the WiiM Ultra does an excellent job as a streamer and makes the DAC optional. So to maintain the volume in sales and carry the R&D costs it needs to have a broader market segment... so it needs to have its own DAC.

IMHO.

BTW, one of these days Schiit might come up with a plug in board for the streamer/network connection. With their plug in DACs, analog circuits, Mike Moffat designing and what not... a $1500 Schiit integrated streamer/DAC might be an audio killer and sell like hot cakes. Note they are now introducing an even better unit.

Can WiiM move to that market? I doubt it.

Heck, I might get one of those uber Schitt DACs to go with my Ultra one of these days.

WiiM is a very nice product. They are walking a very fine line in features and cost. Currently what they offer is rather unique in their positioning. As I noted earlier, they should simply make their analog circuitry better.

Maybe introduce an USB input as well so it can be used as a "normal" sound card? I think that would make it unique, specially at it's price point.

All very well reasoned. Yeah a raspberry pi or similar is fine but lacks the flexibility the WiiM Home App offers.

Ok, improve the Ultra, beef up its power supply, mitigate digital noise and ok keep a dac in there.

 

[Smartplug]

A WiiM Streamer only will get killed by the cheap Chinese things. It will be a race to the bottom.

Only in the High End will people spend thousands of dollars for a pure streamer.... because they don't want a "computer".

Between the cheap streamers and the Nose Bleed Bespoke units, there's only room for a Raspberry or a PC/Mac as a streamer.

Now, normally I avoid ASR because I have deep fundamental technical differences with them.. but on this one they have SOME very good information.

DIY Streamer based on Raspberry Pi 5

All this re-clockers, low-jitter transports are completely new things for me, and they are not cheap. Any thoughts on this - is this worth it, and with what equipment, or is it just better to buy some existing streamers?

www.audiosciencereview.com

See? The market for a pure streamer is bifurcated... either it's very, very cheap or it's stupidly expensive with very low volume, jewel case units which cost a ton because the non recurring cost of R&D is borne by just a few sales. In the middle you got... PCs... Or you go with a PC and a DAC.

Forget Bluetooth.

The solos present an interesting feature, but the WiiM Ultra does an excellent job as a streamer and makes the DAC optional. So to maintain the volume in sales and carry the R&D costs it needs to have a broader market segment... so it needs to have its own DAC.

IMHO.

BTW, one of these days Schiit might come up with a plug in board for the streamer/network connection. With their plug in DACs, analog circuits, Mike Moffat designing and what not... a $1500 Schiit integrated streamer/DAC might be an audio killer and sell like hot cakes. Note they are now introducing an even better unit.

Can WiiM move to that market? I doubt it.

Heck, I might get one of those uber Schitt DACs to go with my Ultra one of these days.

WiiM is a very nice product. They are walking a very fine line in features and cost. Currently what they offer is rather unique in their positioning. As I noted earlier, they should simply make their analog circuitry better.

Maybe introduce an USB input as well so it can be used as a "normal" sound card? I think that would make it unique, specially at it's price point.

ASR is about facts. Nobody believe on a subjective word of a mouth unless you can prove them to test data. Let take for instance Erin where he does review both objective and subjective. If he say ohh it’s bass heavy then he can prove it by showing us measurements why it was bass heavy. These are the kind of review I like they say it then has a proof to back up his claim.

 

[TonyE]

ASR is about facts. Nobody believe on a subjective word of a mouth unless you can prove them to test data. Let take for instance Erin where he does review both objective and subjective. If he say ohh it’s bass heavy then he can prove it by showing us measurements why it was bass heavy. These are the kind of review I like they say it then has a proof to back up his claim.

Facts... hmm... are you aware of the work by Thomas Kuhn in his The Structure Of Scientific Revolutions? He pretty much debunks the common myth of "Facts" from a scientific perspective (which engineers often share, but not always). Look up his concept of "Paradigm".

This is likely not the thread nor the forum to have a discussion about ASR.

I only added them here because they did have some discussions on using a Raspberry as a streamer. and on THAT point, they are correct... let's leave the rest to another thread (or forum) -which would have nothing to do with WiiM...

 

[Wiimer]

A price hike is a marketing decision. A transport has far fewer parts and even if those are better quality the BOM (Bill of Materials) should not be any different from current offerings.

But you said 'go up market'. I recognise it as Eversolo's price range.

 

[Kblade97]

A WiiM Streamer only will get killed by the cheap Chinese things. It will be a race to the bottom.

Only in the High End will people spend thousands of dollars for a pure streamer.... because they don't want a "computer".

Between the cheap streamers and the Nose Bleed Bespoke units, there's only room for a Raspberry or a PC/Mac as a streamer.

Now, normally I avoid ASR because I have deep fundamental technical differences with them.. but on this one they have SOME very good information.

DIY Streamer based on Raspberry Pi 5

All this re-clockers, low-jitter transports are completely new things for me, and they are not cheap. Any thoughts on this - is this worth it, and with what equipment, or is it just better to buy some existing streamers?

www.audiosciencereview.com

See? The market for a pure streamer is bifurcated... either it's very, very cheap or it's stupidly expensive with very low volume, jewel case units which cost a ton because the non recurring cost of R&D is borne by just a few sales. In the middle you got... PCs... Or you go with a PC and a DAC.

Forget Bluetooth.

The solos present an interesting feature, but the WiiM Ultra does an excellent job as a streamer and makes the DAC optional. So to maintain the volume in sales and carry the R&D costs it needs to have a broader market segment... so it needs to have its own DAC.

IMHO.

BTW, one of these days Schiit might come up with a plug in board for the streamer/network connection. With their plug in DACs, analog circuits, Mike Moffat designing and what not... a $1500 Schiit integrated streamer/DAC might be an audio killer and sell like hot cakes. Note they are now introducing an even better unit.

Can WiiM move to that market? I doubt it.

Heck, I might get one of those uber Schitt DACs to go with my Ultra one of these days.

WiiM is a very nice product. They are walking a very fine line in features and cost. Currently what they offer is rather unique in their positioning. As I noted earlier, they should simply make their analog circuitry better.

Maybe introduce an USB input as well so it can be used as a "normal" sound card? I think that would make it unique, specially at its price point.

I have Bifrost 2 that I used with my Ultra. It controls the amp better with more punch. Open it up and look at the analog output stage there’s really no comparison to the Ultra. Would be nice if Mike Moffat could take the WiiM streamer and design the analog stage But the Bifrost cost more than twice as much as the Ultra. I think WiiM will eventually get there but it will be more expensive. Which I’m willing to pay

 

[Burnside]

See... a Raspberry will actually run rings around the WiiM Ultra as a streamer...

Not for my use case where I subscribe to Amazon Music which best suits the needs of me and my wider family.

 

[TonyE]

I have Bifrost 2 that I used with my Ultra. It controls the amp better with more punch. Open it up and look at the analog output stage there’s really no comparison to the Ultra. Would be nice if Mike Moffat could take the WiiM streamer and design the analog stage But the Bifrost cost more than twice as much as the Ultra. I think WiiM will eventually get there but it will be more expensive. Which I’m willing to pay

I got several DACs.

We're in the same boat.

One of them is the Nitsch Pietus Maximus with the Multibit USB DAC. It is based on Schiit's designs but built at a higher standard. Pretty much 850 bucks for the DAC/USB... Ultra is obviously a lot less. But the combo is extremely good as you point out. Far better than the output in the Ultra - actually, there is no contest.

I think it's a matter of putting the money where it makes the most sense. The digital streamer section doesn't have to be very fancy.... the DAC has to be good and the analog output extremely good.

Yes, I'm looking at the Bitfrost 2 as well... but the Byggy looks extremely tempting since the important parts are all replaceable. However, you end up paying for a lot of digital, and expensive, interfaces that I don't need.... That's what makes the Nitsch so good.... just one USB-C input, just two single ended outputs plus headphones... a very robust power supply... it's only missing the balanced outputs, which they might make, except the bill of materials will go up as they will need two output boards...

 

[Kblade97]

A WiiM Streamer only will get killed by the cheap Chinese things. It will be a race to the bottom.

Only in the High End will people spend thousands of dollars for a pure streamer.... because they don't want a "computer".

Between the cheap streamers and the Nose Bleed Bespoke units, there's only room for a Raspberry or a PC/Mac as a streamer.

Now, normally I avoid ASR because I have deep fundamental technical differences with them.. but on this one they have SOME very good information.

DIY Streamer based on Raspberry Pi 5

All this re-clockers, low-jitter transports are completely new things for me, and they are not cheap. Any thoughts on this - is this worth it, and with what equipment, or is it just better to buy some existing streamers?

www.audiosciencereview.com

See? The market for a pure streamer is bifurcated... either it's very, very cheap or it's stupidly expensive with very low volume, jewel case units which cost a ton because the non recurring cost of R&D is borne by just a few sales. In the middle you got... PCs... Or you go with a PC and a DAC.

Forget Bluetooth.

The solos present an interesting feature, but the WiiM Ultra does an excellent job as a streamer and makes the DAC optional. So to maintain the volume in sales and carry the R&D costs it needs to have a broader market segment... so it needs to have its own DAC.

IMHO.

BTW, one of these days Schiit might come up with a plug in board for the streamer/network connection. With their plug in DACs, analog circuits, Mike Moffat designing and what not... a $1500 Schiit integrated streamer/DAC might be an audio killer and sell like hot cakes. Note they are now introducing an even better unit.

Can WiiM move to that market? I doubt it.

Heck, I might get one of those uber Schitt DACs to go with my Ultra one of these days.

WiiM is a very nice product. They are walking a very fine line in features and cost. Currently what they offer is rather unique in their positioning. As I noted earlier, they should simply make their analog circuitry better.

Maybe introduce an USB input as well so it can be used as a "normal" sound card? I think that would make it unique, specially at it's price point.

Agreed

 

[TonyE]

Not for my use case where I subscribe to Amazon Music which best suits the needs of me and my wider family.

People claim that the Raspberry can run Amazon Music.

We run Tidal HiFi.

In fact, the reason I got the WiiM Ultra is because Android and Chromebook do not offer bit perfect audio - they reclock the signal over the USB-OTG interface. By using audio over IP to the WiiM and then USB to DAC I get to see the Tidal HiFi data rates make it out to the DAC.

And my wife gets to play her Tidal HiFI in her tablets and Android phone to the audio in her home office and the HT in the den.

So, I bought four Ultras.... 1200 bucks to get bit perfect audio... and make my wife happy.

I thought it was a good deal.

In this respect, I want WiiM to make NO changes to their current device.

Hmm... you're from Scotland? Run... go get a Linn LP12 with the Keel and Karousel.... it will put this notion of digital music out of your head... my Linn is unique in my systems... Just one turntable to rule them all.

 

[Burnside]

People claim that the Raspberry can run Amazon Music.

As far as I’m aware WiiM is still the only company to support Amazon Music bit perfect up to 24/192 via Alexa and casting from the Amazon Music app and the reason I first bought my WiiM Mini.

We run Tidal HiFi.

In fact, the reason I got the WiiM Ultra is because Android and Chromebook do not offer bit perfect audio - they reclock the signal over the USB-OTG interface. By using audio over IP to the WiiM and then USB to DAC I get to see the Tidal HiFi data rates make it out to the DAC.

And my wife gets to play her Tidal HiFI in her tablets and Android phone to the audio in her home office and the HT in the den.

Sort of similar situation with me - the Amazon Music Unlimited family plan offers me hi res music and the rest of the family access on their echos or in the car, at an extremely low cost for around £3 per head per month.

Hmm... you're from Scotland? Run... go get a Linn LP12 with the Keel and Karousel.... it will put this notion of digital music out of your head... my Linn is unique in my systems... Just one turntable to rule them all.

Well, way back when I was buying a deck I was persuaded by my local hifi shop to get a Dunlop Systemdek instead of an LP12 because of the supposed difficulty keeping the latter optimally set up. Maybe if I had known better back then…

But years on, I do have a Linn MDSM/4 fronting my WiiM Ultra, feeding Linn M109 bookshelf speakers. And their factory is barely 15 minutes away from where I stay…