Features wanted in a Wiim Ultra 2

[harkpabst]

I don't think so.

 

[TonyE]

@harkpabst "I don't think so."


OK. then... if you make the statement.. then prove it. Why?

Let me prove my assertion. Today's listening set up... picture attached below.

Example.... a Fostex Wideband speaker like the FF225WK or FF165WK or FF105WK or FF103NV2 in the appropiate cabinet... cost well under 1000.

Much less than 1000..

Amplifiers... First Watt F6, F4, F5, XA252

More 2ch systems systems

Aleph 2 monoblocks to Maggie 1.7
Dual bridged F4 with FE22 step up to Audio Note AN K/LX
Marantz 2325 to ADS L810

I do have to admit, that as currently configured, the HT evens it out... Nuforce MCA20 to PSB Stratus Goldi... but that's for movies.

Most of the audiophiles I know, are in the same boat as I am. Amps more expensive than speakers.

In the market place... look at the Marantz separates... the amp runs $4K... what kind of speakers do you think they're being matched to?

Even in the NCore, Purify world. where the opportunity exists to flip the score... still, the amps are running into $2K... and way more.

In my experience, you can make a very good sounding speaker for not so much money... if you step away from the multi driver monstrosities and specify good sound and good Impulse Response.

Of course, as the link you and I shared elsewhere... where Bruno Putzeys described, it is possible- and desireable- to blend speaker, amp and DSP.. But until then, speakers tend to run less than amplifiers. And the end result, for the time being, is still quite expensive..

Kii Audio | Advanced Active Speakers for Home, Studio & Custom Install

Explore Kii Audio’s advanced active speakers with cardioid room control and DSP for precise, room‑friendly sound at home, in studios and custom installs.

www.kiiaudio.com

Yes, I would like to see a WiiM Ultra DSP that can do FIR filters for its room correction.

 

[EddNog]

@harkpabst "I don't think so."


OK. then... if you make the statement.. then prove it. Why?

Let me prove my assertion. Today's listening set up... picture attached below.

Example.... a Fostex Wideband speaker like the FF225WK or FF165WK or FF105WK or FF103NV2 in the appropiate cabinet... cost well under 1000.

Much less than 1000..

Amplifiers... First Watt F6, F4, F5, XA252

More 2ch systems systems

Aleph 2 monoblocks to Maggie 1.7
Dual bridged F4 with FE22 step up to Audio Note AN K/LX
Marantz 2325 to ADS L810

I do have to admit, that as currently configured, the HT evens it out... Nuforce MCA20 to PSB Stratus Goldi... but that's for movies.

Most of the audiophiles I know, are in the same boat as I am. Amps more expensive than speakers.

In the market place... look at the Marantz separates... the amp runs $4K... what kind of speakers do you think they're being matched to?

Even in the NCore, Purify world. where the opportunity exists to flip the score... still, the amps are running into $2K... and way more.

In my experience, you can make a very good sounding speaker for not so much money... if you step away from the multi driver monstrosities and specify good sound and good Impulse Response.

Of course, as the link you and I shared elsewhere... where Bruno Putzeys described, it is possible- and desireable- to blend speaker, amp and DSP.. But until then, speakers tend to run less than amplifiers. And the end result, for the time being, is still quite expensive..

Kii Audio | Advanced Active Speakers for Home, Studio & Custom Install

Explore Kii Audio’s advanced active speakers with cardioid room control and DSP for precise, room‑friendly sound at home, in studios and custom installs.

www.kiiaudio.com

Yes, I would like to see a WiiM Ultra DSP that can do FIR filters for its room correction.

This seems like a strange take. The way I see it, the choice of speaker (and subwoofer) has, not counting the room itself and its treatments, the greatest overall effect on what finally hits your ears (both because of the natural, anechoic tonality) as well as the way they interact with the room and how they can be placed. It seems to me that the largest portion of the budget should be dedicated to the absolute optimization of the speakers & sub to the room as well as ultimately suiting the taste of the listener in terms of tonality (I readily accept that not all listeners love Harman in-room-tilt as I do).

For example, my dad has a fully treated, dedicated listening room in his house. The room itself is quite narrow proportionally versus length/depth, so his choice of Magnepan LRS+ works exceptionally well because they minimize side wall interaction. The room itself also isn’t, as a whole, very large, and it’s fully enclosed since all doors are closeable, and he’s running the Rythmik L12 sub I gave him for foundation and low-end extension. This is a great setup for that room. He is also a generation older than I and for reasons of age prefer a brighter speaker to make up for lower high-frequency hearing sensitivity. Given his smaller room and the help of the sub, he is more than happy with the Topping B200s driving his Maggies.

Conversely, I do not have a dedicated listening space and must make do with a shared space that acts as family room and my home office for my system, and it must be placed sideways in the room so depth is much less than width. I do listen loud frequently, so I wanted speakers that have lower compression when cranked up, and I listen to music and movies with quite a bit more foundational bass, so for me, the MoFi SourcePoint 8 have proven to be the perfect solution in conjunction with an SVS SB-3000. These speakers are reasonably sensitive and not low-impedance, so the Topping B200s are more than sufficient to drive them as well.

In my dad’s case, you’re right, his amps cost more than his speakers, but in my case, they’re quite a lot less, and I frankly do not see how other amps would provide any improvement over my B200s in my setup.

-Ed

 

[TonyE]

Well.... we agree on the room.. which is almost a given on the search for good sound. Then you need to match your system to the room as well. Room correction should be considered fourth after getting the room right, matching the system to the room and then bass waveforming.

If those things are all taken care of, an otherwise modest system will excel.

After that, it becomes a matter of taste... because mixing and matching components becomes a matter of how you want your music to sound like.

Maggies are actually sort of a outlier. I have them. You need really powerful amps and yet very clean amps because they are very revealing. And making a power amp that can also sound very detailed is... hard and expensive. You can get a new pair of 1.7 for 2200 bucks, a used one for 1400. The amps to drive them.. ay! Being dipole, you really don't need a subwoofer, it's hard to match a subwoofer with a big planar.

I'm running mine with 200 wpc monoblocks... big monsters. Aleph 2s. I joke that while Nelson Pass says that the First Watt is the most important, with Maggies, it's the First Ten Watts. ;-)

Speaking of amps... well... I just blew two Fostex speakers today. Latest amp threw some DC... looks like it failed... It took some Foxtex drivers that are run wideband. At least this amp didn't throw smoke like the one three years ago... thing is speaker protection can get in the way of the sound... so often, it doesn't go in... I think this amp overheated, I had it biased nicely but... my fault... I didn't give it enough room to breathe.

Oh well, live and learn. If an amp fails... don't plug it on the other speaker... :-(

Now then, pretty much what happens, IMHO, is that you can get a pretty good speaker for not too much money. Your SourcePoint 8s are an example. I mean, for not so much money, you have a superb soundstage and greater dynamics than most speakers out there.. including the SourcePoint 10. A good amp on those things, like an SIT, with only 30 watts will blow you mind. And, being two ways, they have very reasonable behavior in the time domain.

BTW, hint... see if you can find a low mileage Nuforce STA200 or Job 225.

 

[HansD-NL]

@harkpabst "I don't think so."


OK. then... if you make the statement.. then prove it. Why?

What a strange reaction. It's not a statement. He simply said that he doesn't think it is true that amps should be more expensive than speakers. Why are so many "audiophiles" judging gear by price-tag? It's no metric for quality in any way.

Let me prove my assertion.

And then goes on to tell anecdotes about all kinds of gear while making BS statements and does not prove anything.
Do you read the things you write yourself?

 

[TonyE]

What a strange reaction. It's not a statement. He simply said that he doesn't think it is true that amps should be more expensive than speakers. Why are so many "audiophiles" judging gear by price-tag? It's no metric for quality in any way.

And then goes on to tell anecdotes about all kinds of gear while making BS statements and does not prove anything.
Do you read the things you write yourself?

Read back, I made an assertion that amps are more expensive than speakers... hence the whole point.. He replied with another assertion stating otherwise.

"saying" something is making "statement".

Hmm.. I wrote examples of systems I have at home with amps that are more expensive that speakers

Heck, if anything, YOU are the one making the point that price it is not important... which is actually a DIFFERENT assertion. With which I actually agree with. Indeed, I brought up the point that speakers that sound good can be made for not a lot of money.

However, in the quest for good sounding we follow simplicity, which Fostex widebanders indeed are... which makes them fragile though.. just as today my latest amp smoked two of them. And of course, the amp also lacks speaker protection, because being simple it actually sounds better.

Yes, I do indeed read what I write... except perhaps you are not or are not understanding what I'm writing or maybe it's just late in Europe.

Whatever... I'm eating 200 bucks today for the replacement drivers... so, I guess I'm making the speakers more expensive than the amps today...

Anyhow, have fun.

What would you like in the Ultra Two?

 

[HansD-NL]

Read back, I made an assertion that amps are more expensive than speakers... hence the whole point.. He replied with another assertion stating otherwise.

I'm sorry but saying "I don't think so" (that's all he said) is not a statement or assertion. English is my second language but I think that statement and assertion have an overlapping meaning anyway....

"saying" something is making "statement".

Not true at all. Making a statement implies that the content matters or is intended to be noted.

Hmm.. I wrote examples of systems I have at home with amps that are more expensive that speakers

Yes you did, but how does that prove anything?

Heck, if anything, YOU are the one making the point that price it is not important... which is actually a DIFFERENT assertion. With which I actually agree with. Indeed, I brought up the point that speakers that sound good can be made for not a lot of money.

Yes I did. Then we agree (I think we do)

However, in the quest for good sounding we follow simplicity, which Fostex widebanders indeed are... which makes them fragile though.. just as today my latest amp smoked two of them. And of course, the amp also lacks speaker protection, because being simple it actually sounds better.

Fostex or other wideband speakers are fun to build complete speaker cabinets with. Easy and simple, 1 speaker cone, no crossover needed, high sensitivity, low power needed to drive them. They are not inherently fragile though. That your amp smoked them is the fault of the amp solely, bad design. All quality amps from the late 70ties to now are (mostly) direct coupled designs with protection circuits. The only thing between the amp output section and the speakers is a relay to switch the speakers off when a critical fault occurs. "Audiophiles" talking about this simple and very effective way of protecting speakers having an effect on sound is BS. It is one of the many talking points that people without technical knowledge just keep repeating.

Yes, I do indeed read what I write... except perhaps you are not or are not understanding what I'm writing or maybe it's just late in Europe.

I'm sorry, was worried that you do not understand what you write yourself ;-)

Whatever... I'm eating 200 bucks today for the replacement drivers... so, I guess I'm making the speakers more expensive than the amps today...

Not fun to lose some drivers but don't use such crude bad designed amps. It does not make any sense.

Anyhow, have fun.

Thanks, you too.

What would you like in the Ultra Two?

 

[TonyE]

... All quality amps from the late 70ties to now are (mostly) direct coupled designs with protection circuits. The only thing between the amp output section and the speakers is a relay to switch the speakers off when a critical fault occurs. "Audiophiles" talking about this simple and very effective way of protecting speakers having an effect on sound is BS. It is one of the many talking points that people without technical knowledge just keep repeating.

...

Not fun to lose some drivers but don't use such crude bad designed amps. It does not make any sense.

Thanks, you too.

It is NOT BS.

And tell ya what, I have some really fine commercial products that do not have relays at all as protection.. they use dumping devices in their circuits and other means... it's a LOT more complicated that you make to be.

OK, tell you what, you keep buying your commercial amplifiers and enjoy them. To me, there are limitations to what a commercial product is allowed to do. Been there, done that, working in R&D I know what the lawyers say we can and can not do.

But for non commercial designs, we push the limits. It's not BS, it's searching for the best sound. Simplicity, the less devices, usually leads to the highest fidelity. I'm usually not interested in commercial amps.

And I seriously doubt Nelson Pass is a bad designer, this is an F5m... perhaps we just whittled it down to the very limits with this particular amp... it has two 200w switching power supplies running in dual rail... so it has a lot more power supply that spec'd with the linear version and it has additional stuff. Or maybe it overheated in the stack I had it and it ran away ( those MOSFETs go nuts when they overheat ). Or maybe I biased it too hot... Whatever... I think we'll put in some protection, lower the bias and try it again.

Let's just say, that I'm very happy the cost today was under 200 bucks and the parts are readily available, not like the 1400 bucks and three months it took to repair the other woofers...

But believe, this has nothing to do with technical ignorance. I think it came from my own carelessness, should have given the amp more breathing room.. I think. We'll see in the post morterm.

Meanwhile... maybe we ought to get back to the Ultra.